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Why Erdős Problems Are Falling to AI

quantamagazine.org

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Re: Why Erdős Problems Are Falling to AI

#51
post #48
post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> When OpenAI posted about their 10 breakthroughs, I saw lots of career research mathematicians say things mostly along the lines of “I don’t understand any of this it’s way over my head”. Math is an incredibly broad field. I mean, you don't expect a traffic engineer to understand anything about nuclear reactors, do you? Yet, they are all 'career engineers'.

I would expect anyone calling themselves an engineer of any field to understand basics of fission power generation. Come on, it's 7th (school) grade material.

Being familiar with the basics of fission power generation does not put the design of a competitive plant within your wheelhouse.

Re: Why Erdős Problems Are Falling to AI

#52

When OpenAI posted about their 10 breakthroughs, I saw lots of career research mathematicians say things mostly along the lines of “I don’t understand any of this it’s way over my head”. Are we missing the forest for the trees here? If a math problem falls in the forest but nobody is around to understand it does it make a sound? How can we possibly make use of these breakthroughs if we don’t understand them? How coul…

They claimed them as advances, not breakthroughs.

Re: Why Erdős Problems Are Falling to AI

#53
post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have the same questions about human mathematicians! I can't tell if xkcd #435 is still true, or if math is just as mushy as everything else seems to be. When a math proof can only be understood by a handful of people, what does that mean about that proof? I think the LLMs are pushing a problem that existed already and pushing it further. [0] https://xkcd.com/435/

That's why OpenAI also published machine-checkable proofs. The process is very, very faintly similar to running a typechecker over your software sources.

They're publishing machine checkable proofs because that's the only way they, themselves, can check them.

They don't understand the math either.

Re: Why Erdős Problems Are Falling to AI

#54

When OpenAI posted about their 10 breakthroughs, I saw lots of career research mathematicians say things mostly along the lines of “I don’t understand any of this it’s way over my head”. Are we missing the forest for the trees here? If a math problem falls in the forest but nobody is around to understand it does it make a sound? How can we possibly make use of these breakthroughs if we don’t understand them? How coul…

i doubt anyone really wants, or cares, to understand what the AI comes up with. If it's not related to your work or your name isn't associated with the discovery then I would think time is better spent on things that are.

Re: Why Erdős Problems Are Falling to AI

#55
post #48
post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> When OpenAI posted about their 10 breakthroughs, I saw lots of career research mathematicians say things mostly along the lines of “I don’t understand any of this it’s way over my head”. Math is an incredibly broad field. I mean, you don't expect a traffic engineer to understand anything about nuclear reactors, do you? Yet, they are all 'career engineers'.

I would expect anyone calling themselves an engineer of any field to understand basics of fission power generation. Come on, it's 7th (school) grade material.

Basics yes, details no, and if you are deep in a mathematical proof the details matter. For example, I seriously doubt you will find an average 7th grader (or even a professional engineer outside of the nuclear power field) able to give you a good explanation or even definition of the void coefficient, and how it may interact with the fuel temperature coefficient of reactivity for a particular reactor design. Do you?

Re: Why Erdős Problems Are Falling to AI

#56
post #28

something i've just realized : today long-standing maths problems are falling. It's great intellectually but won't probably have an immediate impact on our lives. Now, what will happen once long-standing physics ( and chemistry and biology) problems will start to fall and at the same rate ? Then we're going to enter a totally different world.

Not really. These same techniques fall flat on their face when applied to most physics and chemistry problems. All of academia has already been doing ML4Science for the last 8 years. God knows how many billions have been spent. The only two major highlights are weather modeling and folded protein backbone prediction. Mostly everything else, either lacks enough data, or there are contraits on the size of the foundatio…

Connect the AI to a fully automated lab and it may be able to generate and harvest those necessary data.

It may also produce Supercovid in the process, so...

We don't have to worry about new math as much as we do about new biology. Although "breaking all current encryption" would have some nasty consequences as well.

Re: Why Erdős Problems Are Falling to AI

#57

When OpenAI posted about their 10 breakthroughs, I saw lots of career research mathematicians say things mostly along the lines of “I don’t understand any of this it’s way over my head”. Are we missing the forest for the trees here? If a math problem falls in the forest but nobody is around to understand it does it make a sound? How can we possibly make use of these breakthroughs if we don’t understand them? How coul…

>If a math problem falls in the forest but nobody is around to understand it does it make a sound?

This is not new nor unique. There is plenty of research, especially in math, which can really only be understood by a few people in the entire world. It is not uncommon for a proof to be presented by a mathematician which, initially, is only understood to that mathematician, and it can take a long time for even another mathematician who is an expert in the same field to be able to confidentially say they understood it.

>I saw lots of career research mathematicians say things mostly along the lines of “I don’t understand any of this it’s way over my head”.

This is meaningless in a vacuum. If you give a novel proof in some niche subfield of topology to a competent mathematics researcher who focuses in number theory, they'd say the same thing regardless of if a human or machine wrote the proof. A bunch of "career mathematicians" on Twitter proclaiming this doesn't mean anything other than these people aren't currently equipped to understand the contents of the proofs. That's fine and normal, but the idea that anybody with a PhD in Math should be able to pick up one of these proofs and give it a skim and be able to say, "ahh, yes, quite clever, it seems so obvious in retrospect," is absurd. That's not how this kind of research works.

>Are we ready to just let go of our intellectual faculties and give them to a giant supercomputer nobody understands?

Nobody is blindly accepting these proofs as valid. ChatGPT isn't spitting out a wall of text and proclaiming that they've solved a previously unsolved math problem while everyone is saying, "well if an LLM says it, it must be true!" lol

These proofs are being checked by automated systems (which have been in-use well before LLMs have existed) as well as being checked over by actual experts who are actually capable of (and motivated to) verifying these proofs. But that work still isn't done. There's enough evidence that these companies are confident in saying these proofs are correct, but there's going to be a lot of ongoing work from people to continue to verify and, more importantly, understand these proofs. It's literally some of these people's full-time jobs to do this.

>How do we tell truth from fiction?

When was the last time you verified even a classical, relatively simple mathematical assertion? How often are you just relying on a larger system of experts to ensure that we're not just blindly accepting fiction as truth?

That's not to try to stick it to you personally, but it's just highlight that there's an entire system in-place here that you're not aware of and that you don't have an understanding of that is working just fine including in this context. Real mathematicians aren't going to lazily start letting OpenAI assert whatever they want about their products solving these kinds of problems without heavy scrutiny.

Re: Why Erdős Problems Are Falling to AI

#58
It seems that AIs are really good at finding counterexamples now.

Even if progress by AIs in proving conjectures lags, it seems likely that AIs collectively will, in the next few years, find counterexamples to nearly all the Erdős (and other) conjectures that are actually false and also provably false.

That means we will able to assume that nearly all the remaining conjectures are either true or undecidable.

Surely, that's good for folks who just want to know where the truth boundaries in mathematics lie.

It's obviously causing a lot of soul-searching amongst professional mathematicians.

Arguably, they should have given less weight for the last 100 years to Hardy's view in 'A Mathematician's Apology' [0]:

> It is a melancholy experience for a professional mathematician to find himself writing about mathematics. The function of a mathematician is to do something, to prove new theorems, to add to mathematics, and not to talk about what he or other mathematicians have done.

Rota takes a much more balanced view in 'Indiscrete Thoughts' [1].

"Problem Solvers" take Hardy's view:

> ... The mathematical concepts required to state mathematical problems are tacitly assumed to be eternal and immutable. Mathematical exposition is regarded as an inferior undertaking. ...

While for "theorizers":

> Mathematical exposition is considered a more difficult undertaking than mathematical research.

If professional mathematicians can reinvent themselves, there will be plenty of work left to do to explain the results of AIs to other humans.

There probably needs to be a new career path into professional pure mathematics other than doing novel research in a PhD.

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_Mathematician%27s_Apology

[1] https://ncatlab.org/nlab/show/Gian-Carlo+Rota

https://ncatlab.org/nlab/show/Gian-Carlo+Rota

Re: Why Erdős Problems Are Falling to AI

#59
post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would expect anyone calling themselves an engineer of any field to understand basics of fission power generation. Come on, it's 7th (school) grade material.

Basics yes, details no, and if you are deep in a mathematical proof the details matter. For example, I seriously doubt you will find an average 7th grader (or even a professional engineer outside of the nuclear power field) able to give you a good explanation or even definition of the void coefficient, and how it may interact with the fuel temperature coefficient of reactivity for a particular reactor design. Do you?

I can explain what the void coefficient is, why it is a dangerous simplification, why neutron moderation is needed, how it is typically controlled, why BWR reactors are inherently less stable than PWR. etc. it's simple really. All the while I have never had anything to do with nuclear power professionally or studied specifically it.

I might have overstated a bit, but by 9th grade (15 year old) this is what was taught to us back then.

Re: Why Erdős Problems Are Falling to AI

#60

When OpenAI posted about their 10 breakthroughs, I saw lots of career research mathematicians say things mostly along the lines of “I don’t understand any of this it’s way over my head”. Are we missing the forest for the trees here? If a math problem falls in the forest but nobody is around to understand it does it make a sound? How can we possibly make use of these breakthroughs if we don’t understand them? How coul…

Your observation is perfectly on point, I think the season of companies announcing breakthroughs might be over soon (unless they somehow manage a major achievement, P vs NP or similar). At the same time, mathematicians will be left with superintelligent machines solving the actual math for them, much like software engineers nowadays. This was unexpected, and unexpected at this scale up to a couple of months ago.
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