The Web We Lost • Hacker News Board

Re: The Web We Lost

#11

Post by anildash » Thu, Dec 13, 2012, 9:19 PM UTC

untog wrote: post #6

Funny that he says all this then has a Facebook comments box at the bottom of the page. Don't get me wrong, there's nothing wrong with that IMO- people are far more likely to have their real names on Facebook, and thus leave sensible comments rather than total drivel. But it makes a point that he doesn't include in the article- sometimes these centralised information stores can be useful.

I think I did mention that in the piece, but I deliberately keep the Facebook comments even on articles where I'm critical of Facebook to show that I'm not some extremist zealot. I'm just a normal person who happens to love the web.

Re: The Web We Lost

#12

Post by anildash » Thu, Dec 13, 2012, 9:20 PM UTC

rheide wrote: post #3

krakensden wrote: post #2

I don't understand why he thinks the pendulum is swinging back. Is there any particular evidence of that?

Um, did you read the article? There's tons of good points in there. Some of them might be a bit exaggerated though .(like the oembed one, was that ever popular?)

Twitter's original "sidebar" implementation of inline media used OEmbed, actually.

Re: The Web We Lost

#13

Post by mhurron » Thu, Dec 13, 2012, 9:21 PM UTC

gojomo wrote: post #7

krakensden wrote: post #2

I don't understand why he thinks the pendulum is swinging back. Is there any particular evidence of that?

You're right, he doesn't specifically give support for the idea idea we're recovering these values and capabilities. But I think he's alluding to people, as they gain experience and perspective, becoming aware of the limits of proprietary platforms, and investigating (or rediscovering) other possibilities.

I'm honestly not seeing that people are giving up Facebook or the like because of any limits imposed by Facebook.

The worst I saw was some of the more technical minded go to Google+, which is basically the same thing all over again.

Re: The Web We Lost

#14

Post by elsurudo » Thu, Dec 13, 2012, 9:22 PM UTC

smacktoward wrote: post #4

I agree with Anil 110% that the Web he's talking about was, in many, many ways, a Better Web than the one we have today. The problem is that it's worse than the one we have today in the only way that most people care about: it's harder. To participate, it expected you to know how to do a bunch of things that seem trivial to tech folks but frighteningly complicated to everybody else. You had to buy a domain. You had t…

I agree with your broader point, so I don't mean to nitpick but: the majority (maybe all? I'm not sure nowadays) of iTunes track are DRM-free.

Re: The Web We Lost

#15

Post by roc » Thu, Dec 13, 2012, 9:32 PM UTC

smacktoward wrote: post #4

I agree with Anil 110% that the Web he's talking about was, in many, many ways, a Better Web than the one we have today. The problem is that it's worse than the one we have today in the only way that most people care about: it's harder. To participate, it expected you to know how to do a bunch of things that seem trivial to tech folks but frighteningly complicated to everybody else. You had to buy a domain. You had t…

What about Wordpress? (snark about technical messes aside)

It's as easy as it can possibly be to get a hosted blog up and running -- even with your own domain -- via their forms.

But, unlike Facebook, if you don't like their service, or need more, or don't like some ToS change or version 'update', you can wrap it up with a bow and take it elsewhere.

And businesses exist that will even make that as easy as filling out a form.

There's nothing about making the web of 2005 easier that required things be built as monolithic products instead of protocols and platforms.

And it's that distinction, products vs protocols, that's being lamented.

Re: The Web We Lost

#16

Post by agentultra » Thu, Dec 13, 2012, 9:35 PM UTC

I think it's rather funny when people talk about the, "social web." Before the social graph, technorati, and flickr there were newsgroups, email lists, HTTP, IRC, etc. The Internet itself is a social tool. Perhaps the term refers to some epoch of which I am not aware but it seems to me from a big-picture perspective that we've only narrowly improved the experience since Eternal September.

The "walled garden" networks will always strive to find their value in lowering the barrier to entry for new participants on the web. Facebook makes it super easy to share your photos with your family and friends and passively update them on the minutiae of your life. Twitter does the same thing to large degree in a more public fashion. Tumblr, Instagram, Pinterest... all of the same zeitgeist: user experience.

But the cognoscenti are certainly aware that the web is the sum of its parts and walled gardens are antithesis to participation within its ecosystem. However the problem is and has always been participation: there is no single sign-in, no simple user experience, no common parlance for the mainstream to absorb. We got about as far as blogs and stopped there once MySpace, Facebook, et al took over.

I'd prefer a return to the roots but I think we'll need software and services that provide a better user experience and product-based focus rather than the service-oriented approach that has become popular.

Re: The Web We Lost

#17

Post by shiftpgdn » Thu, Dec 13, 2012, 9:39 PM UTC

majormajor wrote: post #5

smacktoward wrote: post #4

I agree with Anil 110% that the Web he's talking about was, in many, many ways, a Better Web than the one we have today. The problem is that it's worse than the one we have today in the only way that most people care about: it's harder. To participate, it expected you to know how to do a bunch of things that seem trivial to tech folks but frighteningly complicated to everybody else. You had to buy a domain. You had t…

I strongly prefer the web of today to the web of ten years ago because those barriers to entry prevented most people from doing all the cool stuff Anil talks about. So it was possible to have all those better connections, but it didn't happen much. One way or another, services would've arised that would've tied it all together for the non-technical. I don't think we lost anything more than a potential to have a "bett…

I miss the barrier to entry that we used to have. I know this might be a narrowminded view but that barrier to entry prevented a lot of the drivel that we see on the internet today.

In the 90s and early 2000s if you wanted to put something online you had to have at least a moderate level of technical aptitude. Compare that to today's nonstop garbage fountain of ignorance on sites like tumblr, twitter and facebook.

Re: The Web We Lost

#18

Post by chime » Thu, Dec 13, 2012, 9:43 PM UTC

anildash wrote: post #11

untog wrote: post #6

Funny that he says all this then has a Facebook comments box at the bottom of the page. Don't get me wrong, there's nothing wrong with that IMO- people are far more likely to have their real names on Facebook, and thus leave sensible comments rather than total drivel. But it makes a point that he doesn't include in the article- sometimes these centralised information stores can be useful.

I think I did mention that in the piece, but I deliberately keep the Facebook comments even on articles where I'm critical of Facebook to show that I'm not some extremist zealot. I'm just a normal person who happens to love the web.

Offtopic: Can you please change your link color? It looks like every link is already visited and I know for fact I did not visit every single one.

Re: The Web We Lost

#19

Post by graue » Thu, Dec 13, 2012, 9:44 PM UTC

anildash wrote: post #11

untog wrote: post #6

Funny that he says all this then has a Facebook comments box at the bottom of the page. Don't get me wrong, there's nothing wrong with that IMO- people are far more likely to have their real names on Facebook, and thus leave sensible comments rather than total drivel. But it makes a point that he doesn't include in the article- sometimes these centralised information stores can be useful.

I think I did mention that in the piece, but I deliberately keep the Facebook comments even on articles where I'm critical of Facebook to show that I'm not some extremist zealot. I'm just a normal person who happens to love the web.

Why use Facebook comments, though? I thought what you wrote here was great, but the choice of commenting system seems to conflict with the (excellent) points you're making.

Using a built-in commenting system like that of WordPress would be much more in line with The Web That Was. Those types of comment systems are still common, so using them would hardly make you a zealot.

Until I came here, I didn't realize your blog had a comments section, because I block Facebook comments with Ghostery. Not worth it to me as a privacy-vs-content tradeoff. I do allow Disqus, which identifies me by email and is therefore much more in the spirit of services like Technorati.

Re: The Web We Lost

#20

Post by _ttlh » Thu, Dec 13, 2012, 9:47 PM UTC

10098 wrote: post #9

Maybe I have changed, or maybe the Internet has changed, but I used to meet people on the internet. I used to make friends online, and some of these friendships gradually mutated into "offline" friendships. There used to be message boards, IRC and web chats where people would talk, form groups, become friends or enemies. People used to have blogs on livejournal or other services, some were trying to create content, w…

My feelings mirror yours... I'm actually building a product that I hope can help re-introduce some spontaneity in people's online interactions, as they journey through the web. Still very early stage though: [redacted]

Here's a 60 second concept video: [redacted]