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Civilian plane crash in New Mexico tied to military GPS blocking

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Re: Civilian plane crash in New Mexico tied to military GPS blocking

#21

Post by colechristensen »

VoidWhisperer wrote: post #13

The final information on the crash almost reads like they hit the very top of the mountain - according to NTSB, they were about 200-250 ft from the summit, so it is possible they did still have visual with the airport until right before the impact. Whether or not GPS could've helped with this, I'm not sure - it might've allowed them to see where they were relative to the mountain better, since it was the middle of th…

Your GPS enabled flight computer will indeed yell at you VERY LOUDLY if you're about to hit a mountain. It will not allow you to get particularly close to terrain without noticing.

Re: Civilian plane crash in New Mexico tied to military GPS blocking

#22

Post by rbanffy »

gosub100 wrote: post #16
rbanffy wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I find it a bit shocking they'd be caught by surprise by a planned GPS outage. The exercise happened as intended, and all aircraft in the affected areas should have received warnings BEFORE they even took off. These are not drug smugglers - they filed a flight plan before leaving the ground.

The automated weather service was also out. This made it difficult or impossible to use the ILS because they can't set the local altimeter. This was a swiss cheese chain of events. It was a moonless dark night so the mountains weren't visible.

Would they take off if they knew GPS would be jammed midway through the flight?

Had they known they wouldn't be able to rely on GPS, all that back and forth with ATC would not be needed, and they'd already have a plan B and a plan C for navigating.

It's unfortunately all slices of swiss cheese aligned perfectly, but I'd still blame the military for poking extra holes on the GPS slice.

Re: Civilian plane crash in New Mexico tied to military GPS blocking

#23

Post by SecretDreams »

colechristensen wrote: post #20
mrngld wrote: post #15

When I used to fly in Florida in the 2005-2015ish timeframe, NOTAMs for GPS interference (it didn't say that exactly but that's what it meant) were an everyday occurrence along my path, it became boilerplate. I experienced it a few times. One moment the GPS thinks you're plodding along next to Ocala, next moment it thinks I've teleported a thousand miles away, and then it'd just quit. But that's what we train for. Th…

[flagged]

I agree with your perspective re: the tone of the OP. But they hold a perspective that we should also give credence towards.

Your main point is the most valid - wait for the final report. But you should be saying the same to the article as written.

Prelim report: https://data.ntsb.gov/carol-repgen/api/Aviation/ReportMain/G...

Out of my scope to infer.

Re: Civilian plane crash in New Mexico tied to military GPS blocking

#24

Post by 1123581321 »

colechristensen wrote: post #20
mrngld wrote: post #15

When I used to fly in Florida in the 2005-2015ish timeframe, NOTAMs for GPS interference (it didn't say that exactly but that's what it meant) were an everyday occurrence along my path, it became boilerplate. I experienced it a few times. One moment the GPS thinks you're plodding along next to Ocala, next moment it thinks I've teleported a thousand miles away, and then it'd just quit. But that's what we train for. Th…

[flagged]

What do you expect might change between the preliminary and the final report?

Re: Civilian plane crash in New Mexico tied to military GPS blocking

#25

Post by malfist »

mrngld wrote: post #15

When I used to fly in Florida in the 2005-2015ish timeframe, NOTAMs for GPS interference (it didn't say that exactly but that's what it meant) were an everyday occurrence along my path, it became boilerplate. I experienced it a few times. One moment the GPS thinks you're plodding along next to Ocala, next moment it thinks I've teleported a thousand miles away, and then it'd just quit. But that's what we train for. Th…

[flagged]

Re: Civilian plane crash in New Mexico tied to military GPS blocking

#26

Post by Ekaros »

Makes one think about "flying cars". How well designed they will be for losing such system? How reliable any systems would be in such eventuality. For both safety of the craft and anyone near them or on ground... Especially if there is other things going on like weather conditions. Say both heavy fog and rain.

Re: Civilian plane crash in New Mexico tied to military GPS blocking

#27

Post by yread »

epolanski wrote: post #7
Arodex wrote: post #4

I have absolutely no love for the US Army under its current Secretary of "war", but here the problem was with the air ambulance pilot(s). Sorry to blame people who died, who do important service for remote places under hard time constraints, but there has been fundamental errors on their side: https://bsky.app/profile/mikeblack114.bsky.social/post/3mrux...

I too take random's words on socials over the NTSB. /s In any case the news (and ntsb report) points that they are tied, not responsibility.

They are not in a disagreement. From the report:

SRR is serviced by two instrument approaches, the ILS or LOC RWY 24 and the RNAV (GPS) RWY 24. Both instrument approach plate notes section contain the following statement: “When local altimeter setting not received, procedure NA (Not Authorized).”

IFR approach was not possible, the flight plan was unrealistic.

Re: Civilian plane crash in New Mexico tied to military GPS blocking

#28

Post by ceejayoz »

malfist wrote: post #25
mrngld wrote: post #15

When I used to fly in Florida in the 2005-2015ish timeframe, NOTAMs for GPS interference (it didn't say that exactly but that's what it meant) were an everyday occurrence along my path, it became boilerplate. I experienced it a few times. One moment the GPS thinks you're plodding along next to Ocala, next moment it thinks I've teleported a thousand miles away, and then it'd just quit. But that's what we train for. Th…

[flagged]

Is it not possible for a victim of something to carry some blame for the situation they're in?

Is it inappropriate to discuss why Mussolini got lynched?

Flying with GPS out is something a pilot should know how to do. Jamming isn't the only failure mode; much more mundane mechanical/electrical issues occur all the time.

Re: Civilian plane crash in New Mexico tied to military GPS blocking

#29

Post by scrlk »

K0balt wrote: post #17

GPS is not essential to air navigation. It’s nice to have, and there are some approaches that legally require it to be operational in order to fly them (IFR procedures) but aviation has other systems in place to guide aircraft under conditions where visual flight navigation is impossible. In this case, IMHO, the pilots had become complacent and lax in their navigational rigor because of the fact that GPS makes a lot…

To add to this, there's a good lecture called Children of the Magenta Line that discusses automation dependency: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5ESJH1NLMLs

Re: Civilian plane crash in New Mexico tied to military GPS blocking

#30

Post by rbanffy »

mrngld wrote: post #15

When I used to fly in Florida in the 2005-2015ish timeframe, NOTAMs for GPS interference (it didn't say that exactly but that's what it meant) were an everyday occurrence along my path, it became boilerplate. I experienced it a few times. One moment the GPS thinks you're plodding along next to Ocala, next moment it thinks I've teleported a thousand miles away, and then it'd just quit. But that's what we train for. Th…

I guess GPS jamming was not routine for them. Had they been aware of any NOTAM regarding GPS interference, they'd be prepared, and, like you said, would have VOR setup prior to leaving the ground.
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