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U.S. used 'virtually all' of its long-range precision missiles during Iran war

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Re: U.S. used 'virtually all' of its long-range precision missiles during Iran war

#601
post #322

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The difference is deliberate and arbitrary attack of civilians at scale and total lack of concern - popularly, politically, operationally, and practically for casualties outside military targeting. The notion one would even try to compare 'the Caribbean' - where USN is destroying drug running boats - which is arguably against some maritime laws but is nevertheless exceedingly acute, I think shows how wound up people…

>where USN is destroying drug running boats >which is arguably against some maritime laws You get it completely backwards: the US Navy is "allegedly" destroying drug running boats, and it is completely, totally, "inarguably" against maritime laws - and laws of war (but there is no war, right?) and basic law principles in civilized countries. >it's an Elephant precisely stepping on a single ant. It is not a cute anima…

"It is widows and orphans." - you lost the argument by trying to characterize these people as innocents, because it's such an awful position it undermines your own legitimacy.

These are 'Cártel de los Soles' etc they are thugs and killers, the source of untold violence and harm.

This the hysterical rhetorical position that I'm actually hinting at - contempt for a party (in this case the US) renders people intellectually incoherent - willing to defend the most vile actions such as mass murder by Hamas, Iranian regime, mass killings, torture and imprisonment, by North Vietnam etc..

The same people that overlook Stalin's literal genocide - for example, the German Centre Left Party, the Social Democrats, who used to 'retreat' in Russia, at one of Stalin's summer homes.

This 'USA always bad / actual terrorists are victims' nonsense is the psychological affliction at work here, in almost all these discussions.

It's the flip side of the 'USA good and justified in everything' nonsense.

One posture does not justify the other.

First - The US has a reasonable moral claim against stopping these parties, even if they are going too far by not using interdiction, and killing those who were floating at sea. The basic legitimacy remains even if the methods are not justified.

Second - The situation if anything demonstrates US exceptionalism, which is the argument here. This isn't about 'moral claims' - it's about if the US is actually an exceptional military force.

The OP indicated 'the US clearly not exceptional'.

This is completely delusional. Obviously, they are. It's not a moral assessment, which is much more complicated.

Contempt for the US turns people's brains to rubbish.

Re: U.S. used 'virtually all' of its long-range precision missiles during Iran war

#602

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> As for controlling Hormuz, the US military absolutely could control Hormuz I don't see how they could manage that without a full-scale invasion and control of Iran. It's far too easy for Iran to launch drones/torpedoes from small watercraft or from nearby land. I expect they could control Hormuz for a while, but it would be very expensive and I'd expect the logistics to break down fairly quickly if the economics do…

"I don't see how they could manage that without a full-scale invasion and control of Iran" - that's precisely what they're saying, and that the domestic populace wouldn't put up with it. I suppose "could" here is a bit of a stretch. Like technically, yes, you could if you whipped up your country into enough of a frenzy to support it. Hell, Iraq happened (twice), so I suppose it has historical precedent. And yes, a fu…

> a full-scale invasion of a fully committed US military should absolutely be able to conquer and hold Iran

I doubt that - Iran is very large and would require something like conscription in the US to get anywhere near the required amount of troops. The US doesn't have a great track record with conquering and occupying other countries.

Re: U.S. used 'virtually all' of its long-range precision missiles during Iran war

#603

Earlier quoted context omitted.

US has 600 air refuelling aircraft and 40 naval supply ships. US power is mostly strategic, it's 'Air Based' which gives the kind of instant leverage leaders like. It's 'Aircraft Carrier Based'. The US doesn't have that same overwhelming ability otherwise. You can't quite an Army overseas - it takes a different kind of logistics esp. in Pacific, one the US doesn't quite have the level of sophistication. Don't get me…

I believe GP was being sarcastic.

It's ok though - the US Forces do have 'the best logistics in the world' - that's not an unfair claim at all.

They are exceedingly exceptional.

But all of these systems have limits and characterizations.

US would be hard pressed to keep 500K people full supplied and engaged in Pacific. It would take a while to ramp that up.

Re: U.S. used 'virtually all' of its long-range precision missiles during Iran war

#604
post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Paper tiger.

Venezuela thought the same thing. Keeping a full-scale deployment at arm's length, and 'only' targeting military targets with exhaustive use of precision missiles is poor strategy, but if a military victory were the US's only ambition the Iranian regime has no capability that could prevent its country from being turned into a smoldering parking lot. Doctrine isn't the same as inability.

>the Iranian regime has no capability that could prevent its country from being turned into a smoldering parking lot.

This is a laughable amount of ignorance. The capability that Iran has to prevent this is physics

Iran is gigantic. Iran has 90 million people.

If you put together every long range precision munition the US has ever built, you could attack a single City and severely damage it.

People have zero sense of scale. To level cities the way we did in WW2 requires the level of industrial output that we had in WW2, because we have literally not made enough explosives to do so since

The US dropped 1.4 million tons of bombs on Germany alone in WW2

That's the equivalent of 3 million Tomahawk missiles. The US has built less than 10k total

Re: U.S. used 'virtually all' of its long-range precision missiles during Iran war

#605
post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Paper tiger.

Don’t worry, they can still carpet bomb with high explosive and nuclear always remains an option lest you forget.

The US does not have enough B52s and Mk 80s to carpet bomb a place the size of Iran.

We barely managed it during Vietnam using depleting surplus and losing many irreplaceable airframes.

"Carpet bombing Iran to rubble" literally is not an option

Re: U.S. used 'virtually all' of its long-range precision missiles during Iran war

#606

Now they'll exhaust interceptors and other long range missiles like tomahawks and whatnot. And then China gets frisky with Taiwan and the US will totally not abandon them and tell them to just give up pressured by the lack of firepower to defend them, the risks of China getting back into bidding oil in international markets and the mess the treasury would be in if China raises capital by selling bonds (they just told…

I really dislike the manufactured conflict with China because it only exists to sell weapons. There are several flaws in this theory:

1. All but about 10 countries in the world recognize Taiwan as an independent nation. This always seems to get in people's feelings when I point this out but I'm sorry, the One China policy is the official policy of the US and virtually every country on Earth [1];

2. US military policy is that the US is the only country allowed to be a global superpower (aka "hegemon"). Taiwan is a key link in containment, known as the island-chain strategy [2]. If Taiwan falls into China's sphere of influence then that strategy falls apart. And that's really why this Cold War 2.0 narrative has been manufactured;

3. The level of hypocrisy here is insane. Every allegation is a confession. For one thing, China has shown no imperial ambitions. This gets the inevitable "But Tibet!" rejoinder. It was 1950. Let it go. Also, 90% of the people in Tibet prior to annexation were slaves. They have euphemistically been called "serfs" in Western coverage (when it's mentioned at all) but these "serfs" could be traded like property. You know, like slaves. Also, Tibet and the Dalai Lama is a CIA project [3]; If you find yourself on the same side as the CIA, it's probably time to be asking some questions;

4. In the event of a direct military conflict with China, what are the goals? What is the theory of victory between two nuclear powers? The US has been militarily defeated by Iran. Do you think they'd fare better against China? Really? For one thing, China has a virtual monopoly of rare earths, which are essential for all these missile systems and radars we've depleted; and

5. There's no credible fear of a military invasion of Taiwan. Or even a blockade. China's position is simply to leave the question unanswered, which is typically called strategic ambiguity in policy circles. That's the US position as well, officially. China believes the question will resolve all on its own at some point. That may take decades. There's no reason to do anything, particularly when most of the world already recognizes Taiwan as Chinese territory.

Also, China simply does not have the military to invade Taiwan over 100 miles of open ocean. This would likely require half a million to more than a million troops. The amphibious capability simply doesn't exist. Nor does maintaining the supply lines to maintain that. This is also the issue with any invasion of Iran, btw. It's impossible.

So why are we spending so much time drumming up fear of something that doesn't benefit China at all and is impossible to carry out? That question should lead you to the true motive: American imperial interests and the continued sale of arms.

[1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/One_China

[2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Island_chain_strategy

[3]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CIA_Tibetan_program

Re: U.S. used 'virtually all' of its long-range precision missiles during Iran war

#607

"There's no such thing as public opinion, merely published opinion". While on the one hand we should never discount the impact of incompetence, gross negligence, or deliberate mismanagement there's a reason this story is circulating. For the most-dominant military power in the world to "whoopsy" run out of weapons because of a low-stakes engagement isn't readily believable. Suspicious me likens it to the supposed "wa…

> For the most-dominant military power in the world to "whoopsy" run out of weapons because of a low-stakes engagement isn't readily believable. Wow, yeah, you'd need to have morons at the top of the chain of command and subordinates afraid to speak out in order for something like that to happen. Nothing like the US government today at all.

> morons at the top of the chain of command and subordinates afraid to speak out

Hey now! Let's not forget that half of congress is also complicit.

Re: U.S. used 'virtually all' of its long-range precision missiles during Iran war

#608

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Right I think its only an interesting argument in separating existential vs non-existential threats to the country. So it means we aren't fighting in Iran the way we would in defending a hypothetical invasion of the lower 48 states, great. But does it mean we'd fight any differently in the South China Sea, a Russian incursion into Poland, etc. Unclear, and presidential whim based.

The American public has shown willingness over decades and decades to commit to long term wars of choice. Not infinitely patient, but patient. Of course, other Presidents have been willing to put in some sort of effort to make to make a case. And usually have some of theory of victory or purpose. And generally avoid making weird random claims about invading NATO allies.

That willingness is predicated on being at war with much weaker powers / enduring FAR lower casualty rates than Vietnam / Korea / world wars.

The entire 25+ year GWOT era has resulted in 7k American military personnel dying.

Vietnam that number was closer to 60K in 8 years, when US population was also 33% lower.

Dramatically different impact on society.

Sending marines to take an island in Hormuz or a carrier under fire in the South China Sea might look a lot closer to Vietnam than GWOT in a hurry.

Re: U.S. used 'virtually all' of its long-range precision missiles during Iran war

#609
post #302

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If the US got into a war that anyone actually cared about, it would almost certainly snap into action at incredible speed. I'm gonna push back on "nobody cares." The United States is somewhat unique in that our doctrine calls for wars to be fought on distant shores, and that the main role of our military is to ensure that our ideology (liberal democracy) is protected across the world. That's why we entered WWII, it…

>our ideology (liberal democracy) is protected across the world this is pure propaganda and is completely false statement, not grounded in reality. US has no problem protecting despotic autocracies like the Pinochet's junta in Chile or Saudi Arabian theocratic monarchy (a birthplace of islamic wahhabism). The actual goal of military is to protect the status of USD as a global reserve currency and ensure all important…

> this is pure propaganda and is completely false statement, not grounded in reality. US has no problem protecting despotic autocracies like the Pinochet's junta in Chile or Saudi Arabian theocratic monarchy (a birthplace of islamic wahhabism).

No, it is not false. Geopolitics is about lesser evils and raw needs, not perfect ideological consistency. Any country stupid enough to care about that would not last very long, and so none of them do.

The US has spent an extraordinary amount of money protecting freedom of navigation, discouraging conquests, and in many cases halting genocide. I'm not providing citations, if you're confident enough in your opinions to call what I said "pure propaganda" surely you can name them.

> The actual goal of military is to protect the status of USD as a global reserve currency and ensure all important nations are its vassals, fully subordinate to the US government.

The goal of the military is to achieve American objectives by force, like every other military.

> The underlying reason is America is printing trillions of dollars out of thin air, not backed by anything, other than the threat from US military, so vassal states keep recycling their earned surplus currency into USD bonds and treasuries

...you know, good luck with that, I'm done here.

Re: U.S. used 'virtually all' of its long-range precision missiles during Iran war

#610

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I was not

Then I’d stop at claiming “best” is meaningless in a military context without defining what the mission is. If it is starting wars, I’d say it’s great. If it means achieving goals, then it’s kind of meh.

In terms of logistics ? US is the best ever conceived in the history of mankind.
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