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Haters (2020)

paulgraham.com

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Re: Haters (2020)

#11
I guess the fact that Paul Graham felt the urge to write and publish this in 2020 is indicative of the toxic relationship that was developing between silicon valley and the rest of the world.

Unfortunately, this essay exhibits the hallmark lack of empathy and self-awareness that perpetuate the toxic dynamic.

Sure, there are "haters", but the mirror effect is equal: powerful people often end up inside of bubbles that shield them from negative criticism, and often become blind to the legitimate criticisms people have of them.

These decisionmakers often have to make difficult decisions with powerful tradeoffs. It's more comfortable to cast those with values differences or who are on the wrong end of that decisionmaker's tradeoffs as "haters".

Re: Haters (2020)

#12
Using the Michael Jordan vs Lebron James GOAT debate in NBA basketball, haters of one player are often driven by the fanboys of the other player. But NBA players themselves can be haters. Often it's old era versus new where you have older retired players criticizing newer eras with some evident bitterness, and the current players clapping back about how much better they are now, and players in the past wouldn't be able to compete now.

Just one example from popular entertainment, but it complicates the hater/fanboy narrative, and it's simply not true that famous successful people can't be haters (or fanboys).

Re: Haters (2020)

#13
People get brushed off as being haters when they point out that a lot of SV is morally bankrupt. It has nothing to do with "achievement" to point out that a lot of the people running the show are people that intend a lot of harm outside their class through either carelessness or active malice. IE, I didn't hate Sam Altman or Dario Amodei until they started doom trolling and selling ridiculous fantasies non-stop. I don't hate them because they're successful -- I don't even view them as successful -- I hate them because they take actions that are detrimental for me and the rest of society. I would hate them a lot less if they stopped taking such actions.

Paul Graham, man, the whole reason I'm even on this site was because I was a fan of his essays back in the day. But I think he's too connected to this world to see how shady it is.

Re: Haters (2020)

#14

I guess the fact that Paul Graham felt the urge to write and publish this in 2020 is indicative of the toxic relationship that was developing between silicon valley and the rest of the world. Unfortunately, this essay exhibits the hallmark lack of empathy and self-awareness that perpetuate the toxic dynamic. Sure, there are "haters", but the mirror effect is equal: powerful people often end up inside of bubbles that…

Similar to how Trump and his supporters use "Trump Derangement Syndrome" to dismiss any criticism of him.

Re: Haters (2020)

#15

I guess the fact that Paul Graham felt the urge to write and publish this in 2020 is indicative of the toxic relationship that was developing between silicon valley and the rest of the world. Unfortunately, this essay exhibits the hallmark lack of empathy and self-awareness that perpetuate the toxic dynamic. Sure, there are "haters", but the mirror effect is equal: powerful people often end up inside of bubbles that…

I don’t think it’s about powerful people or personality cults. The same dynamic surely can be observed in any communities (interest groups, even families), where people take sides based on personalities rather than facts about events alone. It’s just less prominent, but same overall phenomena - the bias exists, and there are cases where it becomes severe and nearly unconditional.

It’s easy to dismiss PG with “SV techbros are nuts”, but that could be (or could be not, but there’s a risk) the same identity over substance bias manifestation. To de-bias, we should look where the class/status/social-circle identity becomes unimportant.

There’s a theory that our reasoning had evolved not for truth-seeking purposes but for a social cohesion, but I haven’t yet read well about it (“The enigma of reason” is on my reading list) to form an informed opinion.

Re: Haters (2020)

#16

I guess the fact that Paul Graham felt the urge to write and publish this in 2020 is indicative of the toxic relationship that was developing between silicon valley and the rest of the world. Unfortunately, this essay exhibits the hallmark lack of empathy and self-awareness that perpetuate the toxic dynamic. Sure, there are "haters", but the mirror effect is equal: powerful people often end up inside of bubbles that…

> hallmark lack of empathy and self-awareness

You'd have to spell out for me how this is exhibited, but I'm also not clear on how it's supposed to be relevant in the first place.

> Sure, there are "haters", but the mirror effect is equal

The post starts out with a description of mirrored observers ("fanboys") and extensively discusses the mirror nature.

> It's more comfortable to cast those with values differences

Most of the time that I see criticism of the various big names in tech, it's either failing to exhibit those value differences or failing to establish their relevance. (Which is to say: when we get "person X's actions are objectionable to me because they desecrate value Y", there is not good evidence that this actually happens, at least on anywhere near the scale alleged; the desecration is essentially a meme among detractors.) From TFA:

> When you have a dispute with someone, it's usually a good idea to try to understand why they're upset and then fix things if you can. Disputes are distracting. But it's a false analogy to think of a hater as someone you have a dispute with. It's an understandable mistake, if you've never encountered haters before. But when you realize that you're dealing with a hater, and what a hater is, it's clear that it's a waste of time even to think about them.

In reading HN submissions that have the name of someone important in tech in the title, it's become abundantly clear to me that the bulk of "negative criticism" of those people comes from people in the latter category. The same when the focus is on nations or on governments. When the focus is on the technology itself (and when there isn't a clear agenda of trying to make someone responsible for some particular fault), the discourse noticeably improves.

The commenting guidelines have the right of it:

> Please don't post shallow dismissals, especially of other people's work. A good critical comment teaches us something.

> Please don't use Hacker News for political or ideological battle. It tramples curiosity.

Re: Haters (2020)

#17

[flagged]

It’s one thing to be a Taylor Swift hater because you don’t like her music, popularity, attitude, or whatever.

It’s another thing entirely to be a Peter Thiel, Austen Allred, or Elon Musk hater because you don’t like how they are literally messing with the world in evil and selfish ways.

Re: Haters (2020)

#18

People get brushed off as being haters when they point out that a lot of SV is morally bankrupt. It has nothing to do with "achievement" to point out that a lot of the people running the show are people that intend a lot of harm outside their class through either carelessness or active malice. IE, I didn't hate Sam Altman or Dario Amodei until they started doom trolling and selling ridiculous fantasies non-stop. I do…

Graham's book "On Lisp" is really good. I think we should all try to recognize what's good from people, and call what's bad what it is.

Unfortunately, there's a lot of bad in SV now.

Re: Haters (2020)

#20
So much effort for a self-righteous framework of contempt for certain people. In recent years, I have observed several people up close who uncompromisingly focus their lives on economic success. What these people have in common is a remarkable shallowness of character and intellect, which I also find reflected in this essay.
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