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LLMs reward expertise

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Re: LLMs reward expertise

#521

Post by emilfihlman »

bartread wrote: post #429
krisoft wrote: post #191

I did a test a few months ago. A friend of mine wanted to develop what i understood to be a simple single page web app. But since she didn’t have any software engineering experience she asked me to help. Around that time everyone was talking about how literally anyone can develop software with LLMs i asked her if she could give it a try first, and if I could watch the attempt. I was fully expecting that writing the c…

Interesting, but... wrong tool, wrong job. And by tool, I mean web based chat interface, not LLMs in general. (Maybe wrong delivery mechanism, if you like.) Your friend needed an agent, not a chatbot. I use Claude within VS Code (as per many others) but I certainly wouldn't recommend that for a beginner. They needed a tool that's specifically aimed at people who want to build software but don't know the first thing a…

You are very much mistaken.

Chatgpt can absolutely do the things here: it can give you files, it can integrate and show web pages that you develop, etc.

There is no need for an "agent", the chat version works just fine and is actually easier for novices.

Re: LLMs reward expertise

#522

Post by sensanaty »

krisoft wrote: post #191

I did a test a few months ago. A friend of mine wanted to develop what i understood to be a simple single page web app. But since she didn’t have any software engineering experience she asked me to help. Around that time everyone was talking about how literally anyone can develop software with LLMs i asked her if she could give it a try first, and if I could watch the attempt. I was fully expecting that writing the c…

I just gave this a quick try with Sonnet 5 Medium [0] on a free Anthropic account. It's a bit of a contrived example I guess, but it probably isn't too far off what a completely non-technical person seeing this for the first time would do.

The output is EXTREMELY misleading, as all the data here lives purely locally, yet the AI says that you can "just share the link" and other people will see the schedule you set on the generated artifact. Also, what link? To the Claude chat? It doesn't explain what to do with that `Booking` artifact other than "link to it".

I can so easily see someone tapping out a few steps down the line of this once they realize it doesn't work and they have no clue what to do or say to make it work. What do you even ask as a non-technical person at this point? I guess they could explain "The other person doesn't see it", but would the AI actually clarify that it's because it's not fucking hosted anywhere and has no mechanism of persisting the data outside of the current machine, or would it - as I'm almost 100% sure would be the case - not actually point out this error?

[0] https://claude.ai/share/0cbfe698-3886-4d4d-86e4-7c697b61dc00

Re: LLMs reward expertise

#523

Post by honr »

krisoft wrote: post #191

I did a test a few months ago. A friend of mine wanted to develop what i understood to be a simple single page web app. But since she didn’t have any software engineering experience she asked me to help. Around that time everyone was talking about how literally anyone can develop software with LLMs i asked her if she could give it a try first, and if I could watch the attempt. I was fully expecting that writing the c…

...didn't have the vocabulary...

That is exactly the key or the sign there. Even with a couple of decades of engineering expertise, when I try to do / research something that I don't know enough about, I find myself in the exact position of not having the vocabulary.

To the point that I sometimes have to ask the AI "nicely" to cut the pleasantries and be ruthless against nonsense, whether from its/their side or from mine.

Re: LLMs reward expertise

#524

Post by win311fwg »

colinhb wrote: post #517
waterproof wrote: post #511

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Rice stands for Race Inspired Cosmetic Enhancements. Race-inspired to look cool, but not actually functional. Picture putting one of those giant fake air intakes on the hood of your car.

Do you think "Race Inspired Cosmetic Enhancements" is the origin of "ricing" / "riced-out" or a backronym[1]? Honest curiosity about language and language use. In fairness and full disclosure: I have believed until now that the language comes from rice-burners and related, and I have never liked it. If I were still in communities that used it (unix desktop crowd), I might proactively steer newcomers towards your acro…

> I might proactively steer newcomers towards your acronym as a kind of reclaiming.

Any negative connotations "rice burner" once had was lost when the term shifted towards referring to cars instead of humans. But now re-recognizing that the enhancements are inspired by the East Asian race turns the connotations back to humans. Isn't that a regression?

Re: LLMs reward expertise

#525

Post by datsci_est_2015 »

nvrmndmnm wrote: post #419
krisoft wrote: post #191

I did a test a few months ago. A friend of mine wanted to develop what i understood to be a simple single page web app. But since she didn’t have any software engineering experience she asked me to help. Around that time everyone was talking about how literally anyone can develop software with LLMs i asked her if she could give it a try first, and if I could watch the attempt. I was fully expecting that writing the c…

I ran a similar test and got completely different results. My girlfriend (hair stylist/artist) with zero coding background mentioned a Telegram bot idea. I asked "Why not build it yourself?" I gave her a Windows laptop, but she said she wanted what I have instead. So I handed her a USB stick and told her she was on her own now. Fast forward: she now runs Arch Linux with Hyprland (I use Xorg/i3 though), fully riced wi…

Sounds like OP’s friend was looking for a website, and your girlfriend was looking for a hobby.

Re: LLMs reward expertise

#526

Post by monknomo »

win311fwg wrote: post #524
colinhb wrote: post #517

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you think "Race Inspired Cosmetic Enhancements" is the origin of "ricing" / "riced-out" or a backronym[1]? Honest curiosity about language and language use. In fairness and full disclosure: I have believed until now that the language comes from rice-burners and related, and I have never liked it. If I were still in communities that used it (unix desktop crowd), I might proactively steer newcomers towards your acro…

> I might proactively steer newcomers towards your acronym as a kind of reclaiming. Any negative connotations "rice burner" once had was lost when the term shifted towards referring to cars instead of humans. But now re-recognizing that the enhancements are inspired by the East Asian race turns the connotations back to humans. Isn't that a regression?

Nah, I remember back then, it was definitely intended to be derogatory to the cars, to asians, and to people who like the cars.

Re: LLMs reward expertise

#528

Post by scp3125 »

cgannett wrote: post #505
NichoPaolucci wrote: post #449

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are big differences in what people call "tinkerers". Some are INTERESTED in building things, give it a little shot and find it to be daunting, and push it no further. True tinkerers have no problem with this, because they enjoy learning how things work. Installing Linux, Steam, Portal are all relatively straightforward tasks for someone who uses computers on the regular - but to some people this is just somethi…

You can get pretty dang far asking the AI to explain things and show you where it got that info, especially with IT/DEV stuff. Thing that has been very useful to me is specifically asking AI for that vocabulary. AI is suprisingly useful for giving a vague description of something you want and asking for possible words that match. But you have to KNOW to try that. A tinkerer might have started that convo with the chat…

I know you are not arguing from bad faith, but you are making an assumption along cultural lines, which is a mistake of missing the forest through the trees.

The vast majority of people (blanket statement, I know..) do not come from a culture where embracing curiosity, asking questions, or trying to break things down is the norm. Developers, tinkerers, etc., sure... you can reasonably make that assumption. But not everyone. A cultural practice of critical thinking and problem solving is HOW you KNOW to ask WHAT questions need to be answered FIRST, in order to solve a problem or progress toward a solution (if more information is needed).

You might even make the argument that everyone should have these skills, and I would agree with you. But the missing link here is a culture or cultural practice that provides those things (the WHY), and an AI/LLM will not provide those things in absentia, without "prompting", or build up that infrastructure in meatspace for a given set of users. Ignore this at your own risk.

Re: LLMs reward expertise

#529

Post by jasondigitized »

krisoft wrote: post #191

I did a test a few months ago. A friend of mine wanted to develop what i understood to be a simple single page web app. But since she didn’t have any software engineering experience she asked me to help. Around that time everyone was talking about how literally anyone can develop software with LLMs i asked her if she could give it a try first, and if I could watch the attempt. I was fully expecting that writing the c…

Having a similar experience. Watching a muggle try to build a website with basic functionality, e.g. auth, database, etc. is an enlightening experience. They simply do not have the vocabulary to guide the LLM. My good friend calls me every night frustrated with his results, and when I watch what he is doing it's amazing what we take for granted being in the software industry. Don't get me started on the UX, that's even more mind boggling.

Re: LLMs reward expertise

#530

Post by lukan »

RajT88 wrote: post #498
krisoft wrote: post #191

I did a test a few months ago. A friend of mine wanted to develop what i understood to be a simple single page web app. But since she didn’t have any software engineering experience she asked me to help. Around that time everyone was talking about how literally anyone can develop software with LLMs i asked her if she could give it a try first, and if I could watch the attempt. I was fully expecting that writing the c…

I am reminded of this one: https://thedailywtf.com/articles/Could-You-Explain-Programmi...

The comments feel so outdated:

'him: Keywords? Variables? ...

me: (Explaining what programming actually is)

him: Oh, I thought I would write something like: "Create football stadium and football players. Start the game when user presses spacebar. Make players have red shirts and white socks."'

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