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More German than many Germans

mertbulan.com

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Re: More German than many Germans

#381

Post by Barrin92 »

vw_bulli wrote: post #142
juvvel wrote: post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You'll find that Scandinavian countries are not readily welcoming foreigners into their social circles either.

I don't expect to be welcomed, but also not actively "unwelcomed" by many. I never said it's about racism; My extremely pale Italian friend was complaining about exactly this to me as well. The "Verbitterung" here (The fact that people apriori want to fight you, before even any interaction) is sad. Scandinavian countries are even more closed off, that's true, but they are not known to be hostile.

being German that's a sad thing to hear. I really do hope you stay because I think people genuinely do need to stand up to it, don't write us off too quickly.

Verbitterung/Verrohung of public life seems to be omnipresent now, with the capital 'o' Other being attacked for everything. We ought to know better though. I've noticed it myself with my partner who is Japanese when visiting the country. Hostility I've not encountered before. Frankly much of the world seems to be losing its mind.

Re: More German than many Germans

#382

Post by a2800276 »

breppp wrote: post #366
a2800276 wrote: post #365

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If talking Germany the basic example is changing from a very militaristic society (far before the Nazis) to a rather pacifist society. I seem to recall that this was not the result of Germans staying put and changing things for the better, but rather due to external forces reducing the majority of their country to rumble and and spending 2 decades reeducating them. Not sure what "your country" is, but here in Germa…

The way I see it is the cultural change happened after the Prussian elites lost power and the general German public understood their recent history as far from the eternal victory they were promised. That's a major cultural change however you want to spin it, and there are enough examples in history where countries haven't gone through the same changes in similar situations (Weimar Republic also comes to mind) Regard…

> The way I see it is the cultural change happened after the Prussian elites lost power and the general German public understood their recent history as far from the eternal victory they were promised.

But the "Prussian elites lost power" because of the rise of the National Socialists who are universally not considered pacifist.

It might be a "major cultural change" but it was not affected by people staying at home and changing things for the better.

Re: More German than many Germans

#383

Post by DiscourseFan »

I spent a lot of time in Europe after graduating college. I thought I wanted to move there, I enjoyed the peacefulness of a daily life and people who were concerned for the general welfare of society over an above profits.

Then I came to California. For a woman! I've long since broken up with her, but perhaps I stayed for the tacos and the sunset. And that the American west is still both deluded and guided by its founding myth of the cowboy: don't like the way things are done around here? Do it yourself, form your own posse...certainly, if there is one thing that people in Europe complain about, its the rigidity of social life. The author talks about a flat hierarchy but Germans are funnelled into castes even before they graduate high school.

There is freedom in America, but it is an open field, empty and full of despair. You are alone: the state does not care if you get sick, the state does not care if you can't get a job, the state does not care if you find your life meaningless. You can always head west, there is always an environment more unforgiving, an emptiness more vast and unfathomable, formless from the outset but given shape within a tragic struggle, one that few ever overcome. And any overcoming is only a temporary victory, and all your triumphs will fall like Ozymandias, left to dry rot in the craggily rocks and creosote bushes that make up the wasteland of American progress. Even with all those abandoned trailers sitting forlorn, the weak still venture forth thinking that they will defy the odds. One more bone on the desert floor. But at least I have the delusion!

And one day, when I'm long gone, and my wealth has been donated to worthy causes, and my kids and even their kids sit on the boards of philanthropic organizations, they will make a biopic about me, and it will be mediocre, and the actor who plays me will be far more attractive than I ever was, and it will get every detail about my life wrong. Then I will have won--and, consider this, Germans: in your country, the only person they ever make the subject of a biopic is Hitler! I think Steve Jobs is a little better than Hitler...

Re: More German than many Germans

#384

Post by graemep »

kmijyiyxfbklao wrote: post #357
piva00 wrote: post #237

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If you like how a country does things, why not change the country you originate from instead of going to that other country? Because it's neigh impossible for an individual to meaningfully change parts of the culture they dislike which are ingrained for hundreds of years. How am I supposed to change one of the major issues plaguing my home country: corruption? It's ingrained at all levels, from politicians to the p…

You are supposed to fixed the same way the first world countries fixed it, by staying there are improving things with the other people that want to improve things. Oh wait they all left for other countries, oops I guess people that couldn't leave get to stay and rot in unfixable corruption.

That is a bit silly. In any given country most who can leave choose to stay. Even in country with a very high per capita rate most people will stay. People will leave and return after a few years. Many people are better off in many ways staying. If you have capital it goes further in a poorer country. Your income might be lower in absoluter terms but low costs might mean you have a better lifestyle. Other people leaving might make your skills rarer, so you have well paid and secure employment. You might have connections. You may not want to leave family, friends and a familiar environment.

Re: More German than many Germans

#385

Post by breppp »

abcd_f wrote: post #373
breppp wrote: post #362

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I cannot change that, it's part of the culture, it annoyed me to no end, and my individual actions didn't matter at all while making my life harder. That's never true, countries changed extremely, also cultural-wise. If talking Germany the basic example is changing from a very militaristic society (far before the Nazis) to a rather pacifist society. If talking corruption, my own country has progressively became far…

One will be long dead when a desired fundamental change finally completes. So any suggestion to stay and wait it out is plain disingenuous.

Why? Do you think a country is going to improve if anyone with potential like the OP would move to the West?

I haven't suggested someone should wait it out, but the notion that nothing can ever change because it's "culture" sounds absurd to me and as an excuse to not try

Re: More German than many Germans

#386

Post by dustypotato »

beeforpork wrote: post #27
bambax wrote: post #13

The first time I was in Berlin I had to take a bus. It was just leaving the stop as I was getting there, but stopped at the next red light. So I ran to the bus and knocked on the door. The driver looked at me with a concerned look to see if something was wrong, and once he understood I was just asking to come onboard outside of the regular stop, he laughed. Not ironically or in a mean way: it was a genuine laugh like…

The driver is not allowed to open the door anywhere but at a bus stop, the company running the bus forbids it. Quite strictly, actually. I think it is mainly because of insurance things. It is the same in a traffic jam when you are on the bus and the next bus stop is just a few meters away, and the bus is stuck and nothing moves -- impatient people will get angry because they want to leave the bus, but the driver is…

I reported a robbery to the police and they were to assist me to a remote village where the tracker led me . But they also refused to drop me off or pick me up even though we were going in the same direction because of some apparent insurance thing

Re: More German than many Germans

#387

Post by dash2 »

vw_bulli wrote: post #81

This resonates with me a lot, and reading it gave me some positive emotions about Germany which I unfortunately have less and less with each passing day. This country gave me a lot. Moving here from a third world country, the jump in my quality of life was immeasurable. All the rules everywhere were for me a blessing, coming originally from a chaotic city. Despite never taking any German courses, I had reached C1 lev…

This seems like the right place to put https://youtu.be/KfWyo2mqXnw?si=EeYGdpA2BJ_xOzLi

Re: More German than many Germans

#388

Post by breppp »

a2800276 wrote: post #379
breppp wrote: post #366

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The way I see it is the cultural change happened after the Prussian elites lost power and the general German public understood their recent history as far from the eternal victory they were promised. That's a major cultural change however you want to spin it, and there are enough examples in history where countries haven't gone through the same changes in similar situations (Weimar Republic also comes to mind) Regard…

> Presuming we are talking about migration, most of these source countries were able to fight and win European colonization in the past, why do you think that's easier than fighting corruption? While I neither claimed "nothing can change" corruption nor that fighting corruption is more difficult than fighting European colonization, here are some arguments to your straw man: Corruption is very insidious to combat beca…

Yes, and the founding belief of corruption is that, "that's the way it works", "everybody does it", "this can never change".

That essentialism is exactly the notion the poster I was replying to was echoing

Western countries were also corrupt at a time, bribery was common, yet things can change

Re: More German than many Germans

#390

Post by ventana »

55555 wrote: post #358
ventana wrote: post #344

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just nitpicking on the "quarter of my life" point: being in my forties, I spent 3 of the 4 quarters of my life (so far) in 3 very different places in the world. The 4th quarter is a rounding error of those three. I don't think the fact of spending a quarter of one's life in one place actually says anything other than the fact that this place is livable enough.

Can you elaborate? I don't quite grasp what you mean. Do you mean that the first three quarters of your life were more formative/adventurous and the last quarter was more driven by inertia and routine? I can relate if so, just not sure if that's what you mean.

In my forty something years of life so far, a quarter is a little more than 10 years. I lived the first quarter + ε in one place during my childhood, then moved to a different city for the college and lived there for another quarter + ε, and I'm spending a quarter + ε in a completely different country. The sum of these three ε cover the remaining quarter.

The fact that I spent a quarter of my life in three different places does not mean I'm forced to stay in any of these places for the rest of my life. I might as well move with my family and live in another place for some extended period of time.

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