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LLMs reward expertise
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Re: LLMs reward expertise
#342What's this LLM's generated yapping?
Re: LLMs reward expertise
#343I did a test a few months ago. A friend of mine wanted to develop what i understood to be a simple single page web app. But since she didn’t have any software engineering experience she asked me to help. Around that time everyone was talking about how literally anyone can develop software with LLMs i asked her if she could give it a try first, and if I could watch the attempt. I was fully expecting that writing the c…
Interesting, thanks for sharing.
> Whereas to me who knows the terminology would have probably just taken a single exchange of messages to get the result she described to me. I would have prompted with something like “Please write to me an html page which does X, Y, Z.” But since she didn’t know the right terminology she got into a vortex of feature discusion, and she didn’t find a way to tip the AI into “just do it, write it now” mode.
Even as a developer, when I've been using the web chat interface for things which I know the AI can do easily, I've had this happen to me a few times. I was very surprised the first time I saw ChatGPT respond ~"this would be a few thousand tokens, I can't do that".
Even more surprising: ChatGPT was accurate when responding that way this time, despite this being trivial for Claude and well within what ChatGPT could do using the web chat interface 6 months earlier. The ChatGPT output was extremely meh.
Re: LLMs reward expertise
#344Earlier quoted context omitted.
> They didn’t even get to that point. Because my friend didn’t have the vocabulary to ask the AI to write code. What harness did you use? In e.g. claude, there are two modes: 1. Spit out code 2. Draft a plan, ask questions, GOTO 1 You literally have to go out of your way to get it NOT to write code. I keep mine on a tight-ish leash because it modify code way too happily even when there's no intention or instruction t…
> my friend is a novice and needs extra help with things like: copy pasting the code into a text file I don't think this is using an agent harness.
"rawdogging" - as the youth says - weights on local comodore cluster?
They are either using some generic web frontend, ala chatgpt, some local app like claude desktop, or programming app like cursor.
Each of those will detect that you are "building an app" and will spit out code in one form or another. You have to try really hard and be very explicit that you want the output in some other format than code.
Re: LLMs reward expertise
#345Earlier quoted context omitted.
Do your friend at least know what Claude Code (or any harness) is? Of course she wouldn't be able to make a website if she doesn't even know the right tools to use. But I don't think it prove anything. Knowing and installing Claude Code might not be a common sense, but nor is it "expertise" or "skill." I've seen in first hand that people struggle installing Steam . Yes, "people" in the plural. But just because some p…
Knowing what Claude Code is and why you might want it actually is domain knowledge which the op's friend does not have. Your idea of the average person might be biased if you work and socialise with people who have this kind of expertise.
> Your idea of the average person might be biased if you work and socialise with people who have this kind of expertise.
I just said I've seen multiple people struggle installing Steam...
The point is that it's something objectively easy. Once they find (in this case, given by me) the correct instructions and follow through, they can easily do it by themselves again. It's quite different from what are traditionally considered "expertise": for example, even if you followed a master's painting process, stroke by stroke, tomorrow you still don't know how to paint.
Building common apps were more akin to "painting," now it's "installing Steam."
Re: LLMs reward expertise
#346Earlier quoted context omitted.
> They didn’t even get to that point. Because my friend didn’t have the vocabulary to ask the AI to write code. What harness did you use? In e.g. claude, there are two modes: 1. Spit out code 2. Draft a plan, ask questions, GOTO 1 You literally have to go out of your way to get it NOT to write code. I keep mine on a tight-ish leash because it modify code way too happily even when there's no intention or instruction t…
How should his friend know what a harness is?
Having an experienced friend looking over your shoulder and taking notes of every step might help a bit, I reckon
Re: LLMs reward expertise
#347Earlier quoted context omitted.
>We've seen plenty of examples of apps successfully vibe coded by non technical people, including apps making real revenue. Have we? Or is this just something that people say now, without citation?
Plinq. Plinq was made on Lovable, https://www.aieatingtheworld.com/articles/non-technical-foun... Couple more on https://buildthedamnthing.com/resources/articles/case-studie...
I don’t think we’re talking about this kind of website.
Re: LLMs reward expertise
#348Re: LLMs reward expertise
#349I did a test a few months ago. A friend of mine wanted to develop what i understood to be a simple single page web app. But since she didn’t have any software engineering experience she asked me to help. Around that time everyone was talking about how literally anyone can develop software with LLMs i asked her if she could give it a try first, and if I could watch the attempt. I was fully expecting that writing the c…
Do your friend at least know what Claude Code (or any harness) is? Of course she wouldn't be able to make a website if she doesn't even know the right tools to use. But I don't think it prove anything. Knowing and installing Claude Code might not be a common sense, but nor is it "expertise" or "skill." I've seen in first hand that people struggle installing Steam . Yes, "people" in the plural. But just because some p…
> I've seen in first hand that people struggle installing Steam. Yes, "people" in the plural. But just because some people struggle with it, it doesn't mean that installing Steam isn't an objectively easy task. Your friend's experience doesn't change the fact that building a website is something that an average person can do in hours if not minutes.
I think I would define "easy" with reference to the % of people who can do it. I don't know what that is for Steam, but there's a (now dated) survey of computer literacy in OECD that I keep coming back to in order to set expectations for what "average" looks like:
Re: LLMs reward expertise
#350[dead]