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Amazonian civilization had estimated 3M people in 3% of forest area

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Re: Amazonian civilization had estimated 3M people in 3% of forest area

#71

Post by curioadu »

culi wrote: post #61
netbioserror wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That is definitely not what the Maya did. Or really any civilization with large permanent cities. The record of forest cutting once settlements reach a certain size is consistent and global. The Amazon simply experienced a full civilizational collapse and more than enough time untouched to recover. It might suffice to say: The myth of sophisticated indigenous ecosystem engineers who harmonize with nature is a Europea…

I mean throughout the Americas you see really complex polycultural farming traditions including the famous chinampas. In Mesoamerica you also have the milpa cycle which is a system where you clear most herbs and lightly burn it to grow your crops in polycultures. After a few years, you grow more trees and these fields turn more into managed orchards that include both fruit trees and trees grown for lumbar. Eventually…

> throughout the Americas you see really complex polycultural farming traditions including the famous chinampas.

Interesting. Do you know of anything somewhat similar for Africa, ignoring the lands of Egypt and the lands near the Mediterranean Sea?

Re: Amazonian civilization had estimated 3M people in 3% of forest area

#72

Post by ErigmolCt »

pibaker wrote: post #55
khanhnguyen8386 wrote: post #39

The myth of the 'pristine, untouched Amazon' was always a European trope. Lidar is proving that ancient civilizations were sophisticated ecosystem engineers, shaping the rainforest for centuries without destroying it.

My understanding of why Europeans think the americas were pristine and barely touched by human existence is because smallpox was ahead of European explorers and by the time Europeans set foot on many places on the continent, they saw ecosystems that had recovered from human intervention after the local population had collapsed.

Europeans often failed to recognize Indigenous land management because it did not resemble European cities or farms

Re: Amazonian civilization had estimated 3M people in 3% of forest area

#73

Post by culi »

vasco wrote: post #67
culi wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've heard that explanation as well. But I don't know if "recovered from human intervention" is a fair characterization since they couldn't have been more than a decade behind the smallpox/diseases. Estimates range from 5 to 10 million people in the Amazonian Basin by the time Colombus reached the Americas (though some go as high as 20 million). I don't think a few years is enough to erase all trace of human interven…

There wasn't a single civilization there. The same way if you arrived in Greece during the roman period you'd have 2000 year old temples to look at and if you go there now you have both the 4000 year old ones and the 2000 year old ones. In the amazon some of the stuff that is there was ancient already at the time of the Discoveries.

> There wasn't a single civilization there.

That's what I said. There have been multiple. The linked article is about the Aquiry civilization which numbered 3 million people in only 3% of the land. The Marajoara outlasted them. The Upano Valley civilization predates both of them by 100 years and built dense garden cities. The Beni Mounds spanned over 20k earthen mounds and human-made forest islands that were connected by massive canals and causeways

Re: Amazonian civilization had estimated 3M people in 3% of forest area

#74

Post by ErigmolCt »

culi wrote: post #58
pibaker wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My understanding of why Europeans think the americas were pristine and barely touched by human existence is because smallpox was ahead of European explorers and by the time Europeans set foot on many places on the continent, they saw ecosystems that had recovered from human intervention after the local population had collapsed.

I've heard that explanation as well. But I don't know if "recovered from human intervention" is a fair characterization since they couldn't have been more than a decade behind the smallpox/diseases. Estimates range from 5 to 10 million people in the Amazonian Basin by the time Colombus reached the Americas (though some go as high as 20 million). I don't think a few years is enough to erase all trace of human interven…

A landscape does not become "pristine" a decade after millions of people disappear. The human influence would still be everywhere, but it would not necessarily look like European agriculture

Re: Amazonian civilization had estimated 3M people in 3% of forest area

#75

Post by vasco »

culi wrote: post #73
vasco wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There wasn't a single civilization there. The same way if you arrived in Greece during the roman period you'd have 2000 year old temples to look at and if you go there now you have both the 4000 year old ones and the 2000 year old ones. In the amazon some of the stuff that is there was ancient already at the time of the Discoveries.

> There wasn't a single civilization there. That's what I said. There have been multiple. The linked article is about the Aquiry civilization which numbered 3 million people in only 3% of the land. The Marajoara outlasted them. The Upano Valley civilization predates both of them by 100 years and built dense garden cities. The Beni Mounds spanned over 20k earthen mounds and human-made forest islands that were connecte…

I'm sorry but you didn't write that, and so I thought it was interesting to add. Maybe you added it in a different comment.

Re: Amazonian civilization had estimated 3M people in 3% of forest area

#76

Post by ErigmolCt »

dyauspitr wrote: post #3

It’s so crazy that they all just… died because of the old world diseases before anyone really got a chance to meet them as a civilization.

The really haunting part is that Europeans often arrived late enough to see the collapse, but not early enough to understand what had collapsed

Re: Amazonian civilization had estimated 3M people in 3% of forest area

#77

Post by culi »

curioadu wrote: post #71
culi wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I mean throughout the Americas you see really complex polycultural farming traditions including the famous chinampas. In Mesoamerica you also have the milpa cycle which is a system where you clear most herbs and lightly burn it to grow your crops in polycultures. After a few years, you grow more trees and these fields turn more into managed orchards that include both fruit trees and trees grown for lumbar. Eventually…

> throughout the Americas you see really complex polycultural farming traditions including the famous chinampas. Interesting. Do you know of anything somewhat similar for Africa, ignoring the lands of Egypt and the lands near the Mediterranean Sea?

I recall reading of somewhat similar rotational cropping traditions indigenous to Africa though those centered mostly around root crops like yams. Modern smallholder farms still often practice rotational cropping because of this history (something which the west has only relatively recently come around on).

East Africa practiced stuff like homegardens which can be complex, multi-layered agroforestry systems that usually surround homesteads. I've heard the Hausa traditionally did something similar.

I haven't read nearly as much on African agroforestry systems though so I can't recommend much readings. Most of what I recall comes from a college course I took a very long time ago on economic anthropology

Re: Amazonian civilization had estimated 3M people in 3% of forest area

#78

Post by culi »

vasco wrote: post #75
culi wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> There wasn't a single civilization there. That's what I said. There have been multiple. The linked article is about the Aquiry civilization which numbered 3 million people in only 3% of the land. The Marajoara outlasted them. The Upano Valley civilization predates both of them by 100 years and built dense garden cities. The Beni Mounds spanned over 20k earthen mounds and human-made forest islands that were connecte…

I'm sorry but you didn't write that, and so I thought it was interesting to add. Maybe you added it in a different comment.

Ah, you're right. Different comment. My mixup, sorry

Re: Amazonian civilization had estimated 3M people in 3% of forest area

#79

Post by boomlinde »

Terr_ wrote: post #48
smt88 wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The headline literally says they lived in 3% of the forest area, which implies that the vast majority of the rest of the forest actually was untouched

Perhaps, but was it untouched by design, or was it untouched because it wasn't economically feasible for them to exploit it? Those two are very very different when it comes to assigning virtuous environmental brownie-points, and the latter is the default across most civilizations ever known.

Since when is "assigning virtuous environmental brownie-points" the topic of discussion? Your original claim which GP responded to is unrelated to that.

Re: Amazonian civilization had estimated 3M people in 3% of forest area

#80

Post by [deleted] »

guywithahat wrote: post #31

There’s an incredible story about Orellana, who captained the first journey down the Amazon River in the 1500’s with Gaspar de Carvajal taking notes. They described cities of hundreds of thousands of people, and sailing for days going through city after city. Decades later people tried to repeat the journey and didn’t find major cities, ultimately calling Carvajal a liar. The reality was everyone died due to new dise…

[deleted]
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