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The Potomac River Midair Collision

admiralcloudberg.medium.com

21–30 of 41 posts

Re: The Potomac River Midair Collision

#21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a very bad tl;dr and is definitely not the main takeaway of the article. Edit: to add details, the article explains that the helicopter pilot was flying within the poorly defined helicopter route and within expected altitude on the altimeter. Her instructor was the one who made the critical mistake of saying he had visual on the airplane, when he in fact didn’t not.

... "While I was working on this article, a well-known aviation journalist said to me that blaming the Potomac River midair collision on an interaction between complex systems is a copout that allows those responsible for the accident to walk free and prevents corrective actions from being taken." (Also my post was direct quote from the article. I understand what you are trying to do. Because of that people already d…

It’s a direct quote taken out of context.

The article explains that the helicopter pilot was flying within the poorly defined helicopter route and within expected altitude on the altimeter. Her instructor was the one who made the critical mistake of saying he had visual on the airplane, when he in fact didn’t not.

I don’t know how you could have read the article and come to the conclusion that that was the takeaway. My only guess is that you ctrl-F searched for something that confirmed your priors.

Re: The Potomac River Midair Collision

#22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

... "While I was working on this article, a well-known aviation journalist said to me that blaming the Potomac River midair collision on an interaction between complex systems is a copout that allows those responsible for the accident to walk free and prevents corrective actions from being taken." (Also my post was direct quote from the article. I understand what you are trying to do. Because of that people already d…

It’s a direct quote taken out of context. The article explains that the helicopter pilot was flying within the poorly defined helicopter route and within expected altitude on the altimeter. Her instructor was the one who made the critical mistake of saying he had visual on the airplane, when he in fact didn’t not. I don’t know how you could have read the article and come to the conclusion that that was the takeaway.…

Can you please try this, as experiment? Feed this URI to Mythos and have a chat about it. You will be surprised to find many things you are ignoring, may be for virtue signalling, may be because you honestly believe so. (If you don't have Mythos – try Gemini 3.1 Pro via API. Other models will refuse to discuss it with you, I mean flat out refuse, especially Fable.)

Re: The Potomac River Midair Collision

#24
It's strangely meditative to read the prose of someone who was so willing to absorb every single fact about something and to have a considered opinion on each of them. It is a strange type of mind to interact with. I feel slightly cleansed somehow.

Re: The Potomac River Midair Collision

#25
post #16

I spent three and a half hours reading the report. It’s well worth a read. It’s scary; I was aware of the Swiss cheese analogy in aviation safety, so it was scary to read how so many people were raising red flags, but due to either ignorance or politics these red flags were ignored; like people were complaining about the size of holes in the Swiss cheese so much but no real action took place. The chapter about the ro…

Any major commercial airport approach and landing is high stress work and it must never be handed to unqualified unexperienced people, especially with ADHD. "It's not the plane, it's the pilot". Always.

I’m not sure your comment makes sense. Are you implying the helicopter crew are unqualified inexperienced people? But these people weren’t trying to land at the commercial airport.

Re: The Potomac River Midair Collision

#26

TL;DR: Because of her position and the difficulty of acquiring experience, Captain Lobach only had 454 total flying hours at the time of the accident, of which 326 were on the UH-60. She had flown only 56 hours in the past year,[1:12] below the already inadequate minimum of 60 for non-line pilots, due to a knee injury that kept her off the flight line for three months in 2024.[41] And in the two months before the acc…

An Army Captain and a Navy Captain are different things.

Army Captain is an O-3, same as a Navy Lt. Commander. You make O-3 at 5 years of service, or a little less. An O-3 is a jr. officer.

Navy Captain is an O-6, same as an Army Colonel. This takes about 20 years of experience, and is a high rank.

Re: The Potomac River Midair Collision

#27
Pilot here (small / private airplanes, for about 15 years now, instrument rated but that's it).

1. "See and avoid" is BS, always has been, always will be. ADS-B was supposed to end the reliance on it, but the FAA almost immediately started poking holes in it once it was deemed successful by the companies in Alaska that tested it. Good controllers and TCAS stop this stuff from happening all the time despite the FAA's poor decisions.

2. The few near misses I've personally experienced have been due to inaction, as described in the article. In fairness there are a lot of buttons, knobs, dials, and screens to look after. A slowly developing unsafe situation isn't always at the front of one's mind. But if it doesn't feel right, you gotta say something. Especially if you are in a helicopter and you can just stop. There's no excuse for them continuing ahead without better awareness of their surroundings than they had, when they can just stop.

ex: a new'ish controller let me (in a low wing airplane, descending) get too close to another (high wing airplane, climbing) near Little Rock, AR some years ago. I was flying IFR so I was bound to follow their instructions, which were to fly direct to a waypoint and cross it at a lower altitude. The high wing airplane was not talking to the controller, they were flying visually (likely a student and instructor, they were climbing out of an airport with a lot of flight school activity).

The new guy controller gave me location and trajectory on the high wing airplane twice. After the second such call I told him that I cannot see this traffic below me through my wings, you need to give me a turn. The supervisor took over when I insisted, and gave me a turn and new heading. It didn't dawn on the new controller that the *types* of aircraft involved were what made it dangerous, neither of us can see through our wings so we weren't going to find each other visually. It did dawn on the supervisor when I spoke up to the new guy, who recognized the situation and handled it.

He apologized for the new guy and offered the phone number as he took my flight plan cancellation, I declined. "Not necessary, we're all okay, you handle it. I don't need to put any marks on anyone's chart." That's how it's all supposed to work. "Doing nothing" like the helicopter did in this crash did not allow for that possible safe outcome.

tl;dr: Someone has to take initiative. If the controller doesn't, the pilot should demand instructions from the controller. Flying dangerous machines isn't for tentative / indecisive people.

Re: The Potomac River Midair Collision

#28
post #27

Pilot here (small / private airplanes, for about 15 years now, instrument rated but that's it). 1. "See and avoid" is BS, always has been, always will be. ADS-B was supposed to end the reliance on it, but the FAA almost immediately started poking holes in it once it was deemed successful by the companies in Alaska that tested it. Good controllers and TCAS stop this stuff from happening all the time despite the FAA's…

+1 on this.

So far we have IR pilot, known aviation journalist and yours truly saying same thing: "If the controller doesn't, the pilot should demand instructions from the controller." or / and "It's not the plane, it's the pilot." There are plenty of female aviators, most of them are brilliant (again ref. "Maverick" etc.) In this particular case the highest ranked pilot on board was unqualified and, most dangerous – not ready for the flight mentally. She happened to be a woman. Yes, she died. RIP. But she took a company with her. Hiding this simple fact is wrong. For whatever reason. "There are no female jobs in aviation".

Re: The Potomac River Midair Collision

#29
post #27

Pilot here (small / private airplanes, for about 15 years now, instrument rated but that's it). 1. "See and avoid" is BS, always has been, always will be. ADS-B was supposed to end the reliance on it, but the FAA almost immediately started poking holes in it once it was deemed successful by the companies in Alaska that tested it. Good controllers and TCAS stop this stuff from happening all the time despite the FAA's…

+1 on this. So far we have IR pilot, known aviation journalist and yours truly saying same thing: "If the controller doesn't, the pilot should demand instructions from the controller." or / and "It's not the plane, it's the pilot." There are plenty of female aviators, most of them are brilliant (again ref. "Maverick" etc.) In this particular case the highest ranked pilot on board was unqualified and, most dangerous –…

To that point, I also co-founded an aviation charity org that does disaster relief. We randomly had a female volunteer show up and offer to assist us during the aftermath of hurricane Florence in NC in 2018. She had a couple of young guys who were flying small private airplanes for local biz owners, one of which is now an airline pilot years later.

She didn't advertise her credentials, she just said "I have experience, and some young guys with airplanes who want to help."

Vetting her on google said she was a full Col with about 3500 total hours of flight time in a Blackhawk, and the former vice commander at Andrews, recently retired.

https://www.jba.af.mil/News/Photos/igphoto/2001689178/

https://www.counton2.com/news/local-news/mt-pleasant-regiona...

She helped us organize local helicopter pilots again in 2024 in western NC, after that hurricane.

Don't judge people in aircraft by their physical stature, lol. You don't have to be a big strong man to sit in a chair, turn knobs, push buttons, and talk on the radio. You do need to be mentally alert, and you need to be able to visualize your surroundings mentally even if you can't see them with your eyeballs. If something doesn't seem right, you need to speak up and figure out how to handle it. That's about it.

I also agree with the article that a controller working 12 aircraft is not necessarily dangerous. As the article says, it depends on who the 12 are. 8 airlines in sequence on the same approach procedure and 4 random IFR general aviation guys like me who all have GPS nav equipment? It's fine. 5 students, 4 helicopters, and 3 bizjets buzzing around to 3 different municipal airports near each other? That's a different story.

Re: The Potomac River Midair Collision

#30
post #2

6 submissions, 4 comments, and a combined 24 upvotes so far: https://news.ycombinator.com/from?site=admiralcloudberg.medi... Keep trying, folks. This one is worth it. EDIT: > Note that this is a long article (~3 hour read). If you just want the executive summary of what happened, I might suggest skipping forward to chapter 7 first and then if you want more, go back and read the in-depth analysis of earlier chapters.…

To be fair she's always worth reading it you have an interest in aviation. Always impeccably researched, fair and impartial.

True - though you may be misreading my "this one", said when there were no other comments or upvotes here, and the article was again fading into obscurity. Context of my "this one" was HN's /newest page.

Great news: Sixth time was the charm, and the article got real attention.

So-so news: My comment was Overcome By Events, making it useless noise.

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