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Windows XP 2002 for the Itanium: Unbridled rage

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Re: Windows XP 2002 for the Itanium: Unbridled rage

#21
post #6

I miss itanium. I feel like a madman for saying it, but I do. Something about it is just alluring to me. Alas, the problems were too hard to solve or weren't worth solving anymore Ironically, it died around the time LLMs/AI started becoming good. I feel like the compiler problems with vliw could be solved to a degree with a purpose built ai

So I feel like I need to write a blog post about this, but succinctly I think there's a good argument to be made that the issue wasn't the compiler despite popular wisdom. I don't even think it was the nature of unpredictable memory access times either as the itanium has a ton of special architectural hardware to handle unpredictable memory accesses (a lot of which are essentially some of the primitives that an OoO c…

There was also a long piece by a former Intel chip designer who was incredulous about how much the Itanium team was promising numbers based on a very few hand-scheduled routines for FPU-limited code. I think there’s a solid argument that the design just wasn’t based on a correct understanding of what most CPUs did and over-indexed on the most performance-sensitive HPC code. I once helped run some HPC code on a test Itanium system and even there it was just so easy to fall out of the only patterns which performed well and end up slower than older Pentiums even before factoring price into the evaluation.

> I said, wait I am sorry to derail this meeting. But how would you use a simulator if you don't have a compiler? He said, well that's true we don't have a compiler yet, so I hand assembled my simulations. I asked "How did you do thousands of line of code that way?" He said “No, I did 30 lines of code”. Flabbergasted, I said, "You're predicting the entire future of this architecture on 30 lines of hand generated code?" [chuckle], I said it just like that, I did not mean to be insulting but I was just thunderstruck. Andy Grove piped up and said "we are not here right now to reconsider the future of this effort, so let’s move on".

https://www.sigmicro.org/media/oralhistories/colwell.pdf

> Davidson also pointed out two areas where academic research could create a blind spot for architecture developers. First, most contemporary academic research ignored CISC architectures, in part due to the appeal of RISC as an architecture that could be taught in a semester-long course. Since graduate students feed the research pipeline, their initial areas of learning frequently define the future research agenda, which remained focused on RISC. Second, VLIW research tended to be driven by instruction traces generated from scientific or numerical applications. These traces are different in two key ways from the average system-wide non-scientific trace: the numerical traces often have more consistent sequential memory access patterns, and the numerical traces often reflect a greater degree of instruction-level parallelism (ILP). Assuming these traces were typical could lead architecture designers to optimize for cases found more rarely in commercial computing workloads. Fred Weber echoed this latter point in a phone interview. Bhandarkar also speculated that the decision to pursue VLIW was driven by the prejudices of a few researchers, rather than by sound technical analysis.

http://courses.cs.washington.edu/courses/csep590/06au/projec...

Re: Windows XP 2002 for the Itanium: Unbridled rage

#22
post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So I feel like I need to write a blog post about this, but succinctly I think there's a good argument to be made that the issue wasn't the compiler despite popular wisdom. I don't even think it was the nature of unpredictable memory access times either as the itanium has a ton of special architectural hardware to handle unpredictable memory accesses (a lot of which are essentially some of the primitives that an OoO c…

It was also planned for a world where high-end CPUs were differentiated by their ability to run floating-point-heavy workloads with relatively predictable memory access patterns. The rise of the web—and databases behind it—as the dominant high-end, high-margin workload obsoleted that assumption. There’s a great presentation floating around where a Compaq-acquired-DEC engineer is trying to justify how great the OpenVM…

If only the Alpha had hung on.

Re: Windows XP 2002 for the Itanium: Unbridled rage

#23

I wonder if people are able to get Windows Server 2008 R2 to run on this yet as well. That was the last Windows OS to support Itanium, and it received updates until January 14, 2020. EDIT: there was also an additional patch released in May 2020 according to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Windows_Server_2008_R2#Itanium

Wild that shipments of Itaniums didn't end until 2021.

I think HP had a big investment in Itanium and even sued Oracle to get them to keep supporting Itanium (they had contractually agreed to it, but Itanium was such a dead end...)

Re: Windows XP 2002 for the Itanium: Unbridled rage

#24
post #21
post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So I feel like I need to write a blog post about this, but succinctly I think there's a good argument to be made that the issue wasn't the compiler despite popular wisdom. I don't even think it was the nature of unpredictable memory access times either as the itanium has a ton of special architectural hardware to handle unpredictable memory accesses (a lot of which are essentially some of the primitives that an OoO c…

There was also a long piece by a former Intel chip designer who was incredulous about how much the Itanium team was promising numbers based on a very few hand-scheduled routines for FPU-limited code. I think there’s a solid argument that the design just wasn’t based on a correct understanding of what most CPUs did and over-indexed on the most performance-sensitive HPC code. I once helped run some HPC code on a test I…

It's doubly funny knowing that basically nobody bothers doing these kinds of workloads on CPU if they can help it. And everything you have to do to get GPU floating point performance also makes GPUs really, really bad for normal CPU code. Hell, at one point AMD actually was shipping VLIW for shader code...

Re: Windows XP 2002 for the Itanium: Unbridled rage

#25
post #7

I miss itanium. I feel like a madman for saying it, but I do. Something about it is just alluring to me. Alas, the problems were too hard to solve or weren't worth solving anymore Ironically, it died around the time LLMs/AI started becoming good. I feel like the compiler problems with vliw could be solved to a degree with a purpose built ai

People have tried all kinds of techniques for VLIW, including techniques that are much better than a purpose built AI, AI isn't a magic silver bullet. Fundamentally there's no reason you can't analyse a piece of code to death, and maximally extract parallelism out of it The fundamental issue is that there simply doesn't exist enough information to be able to extract the necessary parallelism without a rewrite, its th…

From memory, Glasgow University CS had serious buy in to VLIW models of computation for a while, predating Itanium. There was good reason for believing it might have some interesting behaviours. I think they worked on languages targetting it, data models, things like reversible computation, long lived processes.

Re: Windows XP 2002 for the Itanium: Unbridled rage

#26
post #21
post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So I feel like I need to write a blog post about this, but succinctly I think there's a good argument to be made that the issue wasn't the compiler despite popular wisdom. I don't even think it was the nature of unpredictable memory access times either as the itanium has a ton of special architectural hardware to handle unpredictable memory accesses (a lot of which are essentially some of the primitives that an OoO c…

There was also a long piece by a former Intel chip designer who was incredulous about how much the Itanium team was promising numbers based on a very few hand-scheduled routines for FPU-limited code. I think there’s a solid argument that the design just wasn’t based on a correct understanding of what most CPUs did and over-indexed on the most performance-sensitive HPC code. I once helped run some HPC code on a test I…

> http://courses.cs.washington.edu/courses/csep590/06au/projec...

This link requires a log-in.

Re: Windows XP 2002 for the Itanium: Unbridled rage

#27
post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would love to read the Microsoft PM spec for this product. Who in the world were they making it for? Itanium never made it into the consumer-class hardware that was XP’s audience. AFAIK, Intel never even published a roadmap for that to happen! Maybe a proof of concept they shipped as a demonstration of loyalty to Intel?!

In approx. 2000 to 2002, 2003 or around then, there was a theoretical dream that Itanium based workstations would become a real mass market thing, but it obviously never caught on. Intel never made Itanium CPUs cheap enough to realistically purchase and Itanium motherboards never became a thing from the top-10 sized Taiwanese motherboard makers (the same companies that were making really nice boards for the 1 GHz to…

> Itanium motherboards never became a thing from the top-10 sized Taiwanese motherboard makers

Supermicro and pretty sure Tyan offered Itanium motherboards.

From what I remember the Itanium was always harped on as too complex and too power hungry for mainstream while offering abysmal x86 emulation which soured its adoption. It had a niche in certain industries like HPC and high reliability. AMD's x64 architecture launched only 2 years after Itanium launched and pretty much destroyed any future for Itanium.

Re: Windows XP 2002 for the Itanium: Unbridled rage

#28
post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There was also a long piece by a former Intel chip designer who was incredulous about how much the Itanium team was promising numbers based on a very few hand-scheduled routines for FPU-limited code. I think there’s a solid argument that the design just wasn’t based on a correct understanding of what most CPUs did and over-indexed on the most performance-sensitive HPC code. I once helped run some HPC code on a test I…

It's doubly funny knowing that basically nobody bothers doing these kinds of workloads on CPU if they can help it. And everything you have to do to get GPU floating point performance also makes GPUs really, really bad for normal CPU code. Hell, at one point AMD actually was shipping VLIW for shader code...

> It's doubly funny knowing that basically nobody bothers doing these kinds of workloads on CPU if they can help it.

When the Itanium was developed and introduced (2001), nobody was thinking about general-purpose computations. DirectX 8.0, which introduced Shader Model 1.1 (which was far away from being suitable for GPGPU; Shader Model 1.1 was rather about strongly (also size-)limited programs for the vertex and pixel processing stage), was only introduced in 2000, the first release of CUDA was in 2007, and the first release of OpenCL was in 2009.

Re: Windows XP 2002 for the Itanium: Unbridled rage

#29
post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would love to read the Microsoft PM spec for this product. Who in the world were they making it for? Itanium never made it into the consumer-class hardware that was XP’s audience. AFAIK, Intel never even published a roadmap for that to happen! Maybe a proof of concept they shipped as a demonstration of loyalty to Intel?!

In approx. 2000 to 2002, 2003 or around then, there was a theoretical dream that Itanium based workstations would become a real mass market thing, but it obviously never caught on. Intel never made Itanium CPUs cheap enough to realistically purchase and Itanium motherboards never became a thing from the top-10 sized Taiwanese motherboard makers (the same companies that were making really nice boards for the 1 GHz to…

It totally worked! Took out like four decent risc competitors with just a little FOMO

Re: Windows XP 2002 for the Itanium: Unbridled rage

#30
post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It was also planned for a world where high-end CPUs were differentiated by their ability to run floating-point-heavy workloads with relatively predictable memory access patterns. The rise of the web—and databases behind it—as the dominant high-end, high-margin workload obsoleted that assumption. There’s a great presentation floating around where a Compaq-acquired-DEC engineer is trying to justify how great the OpenVM…

If only the Alpha had hung on.

I have an AlphaServer in my collection (DS10.) For a 25+ year old system, it still feels pretty snappy!
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