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The Dunning-Kruger effect may just be a data artefact (2020)

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Re: The Dunning-Kruger effect may just be a data artefact (2020)

#11
The strict academic definition hasn’t followed the colloquial usage for a long time. Maybe ever:

If a specific novice is over-confident and out of their depth, we say “Dunning-Kruger”

If a specific is under-confident and performing better than their self-estimate, that’s not commonly considered Dunning Kruger, in the colloquial use. It’s called imposter syndrome, or not labeled at all.

The researchers aren’t really disagreeing with that. They found that novices had a wider range of self-estimates of their performance than experienced people. So in the novice group you were more likely to find someone who was grossly over-confident in their abilities, but you also found people who underestimated themselves.

> instead showed that both experts and novices underestimate and overestimate their skills with the same frequency. “It’s just that experts do that over a narrower range,” he wrote to me.

Which doesn’t precisely contradict the idea that among novices you can find people who overestimate their skills. Which is how it’s commonly used.

So I can believe it’s a statistical wash when averaging across all subjects. But I never considered the common use of Dunning-Kruger to be applied to averaged groups of people. It was always brought out for those outliers on the long tail of the novice grout who thought didn’t even know what they didn’t know.

Re: The Dunning-Kruger effect may just be a data artefact (2020)

#12
post #10
post #4

It’s obviously real, at least as used in conversation, whether it meets some rigorous definition I’m sure there’s an out, but we’ve all known these people. With vibe coding they’re everywhere. Is this going to be a modern “begging the question” where everyone knows what you mean but someone pipes up that actually the technical meaning is different?

The problem is that the original formulation was "most people" are unaware of being unskilled, but by now the name is used to mean "some group of people" is unaware of being unskilled. In that sense the article confirms that “a small number are", 5-6%, and therefore the effect exists in the colloquial sense but not in the scientific sense. Mentioning the Dunning-Krueger effect incorrectly is wonderfully meta...

My experience with new CS grads was that most of them greatly overestimated what they knew, or alternatively, underestimated how much they did not know.

Re: The Dunning-Kruger effect may just be a data artefact (2020)

#16
The article may not take into account the possible effect of knowing about the Dunning-Kruger effect (or cultural sayings that goes in a similar direction) may bias measurements. Before it was widely enough known it was not a factor.

Also, negative knowledge comes in two flavours, what you know that you don't know and what you don't know that you don't know. There it may be ground for that effect, but also changes in culture may affect that, specially with exposure to internet/global culture and attitudes, that may make you more aware of what you don't know, and stories of success/fail for taking the wrong approach.

Re: The Dunning-Kruger effect may just be a data artefact (2020)

#18
I think what people need to realize is that the Dunning-Kruger effect is mostly "not real" because, on average, everyone (regardless of competence) overestimates themselves. Saying that incompetent people overestimate themselves doesn't prove Dunning-Kruger is real, because it doesn't negate the fact that competent people also do this.

Re: The Dunning-Kruger effect may just be a data artefact (2020)

#20
post #6

Isn't trying to discount published research with a glorified blog post the Dunning-Kruger Effect in action?

Do you think there's some element in published research that makes it automagically correct?

Papers saying that lead in petrol was totally safe were "published research", as were the papers saying that replacing tetraethyl lead with benzine made it safer.

Both of those turned out to be pretty majorly wrong, but they were "published research".

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