Live data from Hacker News

Situational Awareness and the Impending Stock Market Volatility

emergingtrajectories.com

51–60 of 61 posts

Re: Situational Awareness and the Impending Stock Market Volatility

#51
post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>This fund returned 47% in its first 6m and over 400% prior to the downturn. >Returns like that are not asymmetrical and can only be produced with leverage This is simply untrue. Just because the path to doing so is much more clear in hindsight doesn't mean it wasn't possible. Sandisk is still up 110.82% in the last 6 months, and that's after a drawdown that's now approaching 50% from peak. Over the last year, they'r…

The skill in the stock market, and the value of any kind of investment fund, is producing good returns over an actual long-term period. YOLO-ing once before imploding in one of the biggest bull markets ever can be done by any gambling degenerate out there.

True, but he is still, even after this, up 80% YTD, so not a total implosion.

No doubt he has learnt a valuable lesson.

Many famous investors, such as George Soros, have had huge losses at some point in their career, but have taken in in their stride and still done well. If you are taking big swings then sometimes you will have big misses.

Re: Situational Awareness and the Impending Stock Market Volatility

#52
post #43

Just to jump in: Citadel buying this portfolio says nothing about how Citadel feels about the stocks. It's the bread and butter of large HFT hedge funds; if you see someone that has to sell stock, you leverage the fact that you can buy all of it to get a discount versus the asset value. Reports are saying that Citadel was able to buy the portfolio for ~10% under the market value, all at once. That's a no-brainer beca…

Do you believe this might have been Citadel grooming SA to implode like that?

SA likely didnt lever up with Citadel, it did so via prime brokers which are the big banks (MS, GS, JPM, CS, and/or DB)

Re: Situational Awareness and the Impending Stock Market Volatility

#54

Just to jump in: Citadel buying this portfolio says nothing about how Citadel feels about the stocks. It's the bread and butter of large HFT hedge funds; if you see someone that has to sell stock, you leverage the fact that you can buy all of it to get a discount versus the asset value. Reports are saying that Citadel was able to buy the portfolio for ~10% under the market value, all at once. That's a no-brainer beca…

Everyone in the markets was talking about SA for the last week and shorting or covering anything they had that overlapped. I am fairly confident that Citadel was net short a good chunk of the stocks they bought from SA (and long a SA's shorts).

Contrary to popular belief these people know what they are doing.

Re: Situational Awareness and the Impending Stock Market Volatility

#55
post #43

Just to jump in: Citadel buying this portfolio says nothing about how Citadel feels about the stocks. It's the bread and butter of large HFT hedge funds; if you see someone that has to sell stock, you leverage the fact that you can buy all of it to get a discount versus the asset value. Reports are saying that Citadel was able to buy the portfolio for ~10% under the market value, all at once. That's a no-brainer beca…

Do you believe this might have been Citadel grooming SA to implode like that?

They might not have known it was SA specifically. That being said, they definitely knew a large fund with leverage was buying these stocks. The mechanism here (and I'm not an expert) is:

1. SA wants to buy stock with leverage. You do that through a major bank via total return swaps. Essentially, SA pays X% of the value on $100 of stock (for 4x leverage you'd pay $25) plus an ongoing financing fee (call it 5% a year), then you get the return/loss on that $100 of stock. SA was in these agreements with JPMorgan and Goldman Sachs.

2. The bank, because they don't want to actually hold that risk, goes out and buys $100 of stock.

3. Citadel and others see JPMorgan buying lots and lots of this stock. That's confusing, because normally JPMorgan wouldn't be making a huge directional bet on a stock. They deduce that a large fund is buying the stock.

4. Citadel starts widening their spread (the difference between what they'll buy a stock for and what they'll sell it for). They hedge some of this as best they can, or temporarily live with the risk.

5. SA, the highly leveraged fund buying volatile stocks, inevitably blows up because volatile stocks swing around in price. A dip causes margin calls.

6. JPMorgan or Goldman need to sell the stock fast, because SA is close to dipping below their required margin (i.e. SA paid $25 for $100 in stock exposure, the stock drops to $90, JPMorgan asks for more money because the stock went down by too much).

7. Citadel offers to buy all of the stock from JPMorgan. Because they're doing it in one big block, JPMorgan doesn't lose money selling on the open market (once you start selling, each successive sale is for less money because there are more people selling than buying). Citadel is compensated for this by getting a discount to the asset value (the stock is worth $90, Citadel gets to buy it for $81).

So Citadel didn't do anything to "set up" SA. But because they're hyper-aware of market dynamics, they would have known that someone is going to need to sell stock if the market takes a turn on these names.

Re: Situational Awareness and the Impending Stock Market Volatility

#56
post #7

This fund returned 47% in its first 6m and over 400% prior to the downturn. I don't understand how the investors didn't realize this was going to blow up. Returns like that are not asymmetrical and can only be produced with leverage, at least when you're trading paper. When something is inevitable and there is a large enough position, this makes adversarial attacks likely. Every small drop causes an amplified amount…

hindsight is easy. imagine apple and amazon stock holders thinking the same and selling when stock went up 100% after ipo

> > imagine apple and amazon stock holders thinking the same and selling when stock went up 100% after ipo

In the case of Amazon they'd have had the opportunity to buy at 97% discount compared to ATH

Re: Situational Awareness and the Impending Stock Market Volatility

#57
post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you believe this might have been Citadel grooming SA to implode like that?

They might not have known it was SA specifically. That being said, they definitely knew a large fund with leverage was buying these stocks. The mechanism here (and I'm not an expert) is: 1. SA wants to buy stock with leverage. You do that through a major bank via total return swaps. Essentially, SA pays X% of the value on $100 of stock (for 4x leverage you'd pay $25) plus an ongoing financing fee (call it 5% a year),…

I generally agree with you but given your comments, you might enjoy some additional details... Or please challenge me if you think I am wrong.

I've been paying for order-level data feeds on stocks and one thing you'll find is that a lot of the 'sensitive' trades will be anonymized or broken down in different ways to obfuscate who is trading. Citadel would still be able to see there's a surprising level of interest in a certain stock but might not be able to deduce it's one actor. A broker working for SA should know they need to do this, as it helps the broker do better via commissions, etc. too.

My understanding is that Citadel negotiated directly with SA to buy the book, so the final trades were likely taking place outside of the formal market feeds.

Re: Situational Awareness and the Impending Stock Market Volatility

#58
post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you believe this might have been Citadel grooming SA to implode like that?

They might not have known it was SA specifically. That being said, they definitely knew a large fund with leverage was buying these stocks. The mechanism here (and I'm not an expert) is: 1. SA wants to buy stock with leverage. You do that through a major bank via total return swaps. Essentially, SA pays X% of the value on $100 of stock (for 4x leverage you'd pay $25) plus an ongoing financing fee (call it 5% a year),…

the last step, #7, is that fully automated or is this humans calling humans? I imagine everything before then is quite automated, and are thus happening very quickly, so I'm curious if the last piece possible being manual has the potential to blow the whole thing up by being too slow.

Re: Situational Awareness and the Impending Stock Market Volatility

#59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They might not have known it was SA specifically. That being said, they definitely knew a large fund with leverage was buying these stocks. The mechanism here (and I'm not an expert) is: 1. SA wants to buy stock with leverage. You do that through a major bank via total return swaps. Essentially, SA pays X% of the value on $100 of stock (for 4x leverage you'd pay $25) plus an ongoing financing fee (call it 5% a year),…

the last step, #7, is that fully automated or is this humans calling humans? I imagine everything before then is quite automated, and are thus happening very quickly, so I'm curious if the last piece possible being manual has the potential to blow the whole thing up by being too slow.

It's humans from other banks/funds bidding on the block of stock. As far as timing, for this situation it's basically overnight for regulatory and price reasons. Regulatory because there are legal margin requirements for levered positions and you can't handle the price going much lower, and price because if you had to sell this on the open market you'd keep selling shares for less and less.

So JPMorgan/Goldman prepare all the info on the book and start calling institutional investors after the market closes. The funds and banks prepare bids, there's some negotiation, and the block is finalized before trading opens the next day.

Speed does matter, but you're only calling investors you know "can" close the deal (i.e. they'll have enough capital to buy it all that day/night). So it's more of a price question than a speed one at that point?

And really, nobody wants the downward spiral of a fire sale in the tech sector. Someone will make money on that chaos, but it's a lot of risk when you can lock in a discount with the block trade.

Post reply on HN