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Karpathy’s Pelican

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Re: Karpathy’s Pelican

#421

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why does it require knowledge about spatial relationships?

Because the degree of realism in a video is determined by implicit knowledge of concepts like "in front of", "behind", "next to", "inside", "outside", "between", "occluded by", etc. as well as distances, angles, and the relative size of objects when viewed from a perspective.

The problem i have with this argument is they still struggle to generate images of so many basic things that should be explained in their "world model" (text, fingers, reflections, faces) - so clearly they dont have a "world model" in the way that we have one.

And if you use image generation capabilities, you clearly see that LLM's suck as understanding "next" to a thing.

Re: Karpathy’s Pelican

#422

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Many humans would struggle with this even with very good tooling (ie not writing raw svg and using illustrator). I struggle to draw a bicycle accurately. But yes, I suspect it will be diminishing returns and I doubt it will ever be perfect due to the average nature of AI but I’d like to be wrong.

> Many humans would struggle with this even with very good tooling But no ones hire random humans for things like this. You go and hire a vector artist and they will get your a very good pelican on a a bike. That's how you get things done when you can't do it.

> You go and hire a vector artist

Yeah, but then, you recruit the artist for $XXX - whereas you "recruit" your LLM for $0.XXX for the same task.

Of course the quality difference is huge. But sometimes you don't need that level of quality.

Also, finding a vector artist takes days of communication, payment settlement, revisions, etc.

Not always the most practical solution.

Re: Karpathy’s Pelican

#423
i feel that the proposed approach is close to becoming "demo prawn"* territory.

similar to cpu benchmarks (e.g. geekbench, which also had a recent update), the goal is to distinguish model in some arbitrary thing. however, it is not quantifiable but subjectively even the latest show distinctive differences regardless.

large context window is still relatively new and not "feasible" even commercially, so making that a requirement for a benchmark would not make it accessible especially for open-source ones.

* yes, i misspelled it intentionally

Re: Karpathy’s Pelican

#424
post #262

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd like to see tests of things the current AIs are bad at, like drive a car. Or maybe take instruction to complete some novel activity to test how well they can learn.

Would you say that the generated video is good? Better than I would have expected? Sure. Impressive that it got that far? Definitely. But is the end result good?

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Re: Karpathy’s Pelican

#425

Out of curiosity, I asked Opus 5 to do the same with the first ~1.5 pages of Neuromancer by William Gibson, which I thought might be a good test of interpretation from the model. It refused to use the text verbatim because of copyright (ironic), but the output was interesting nonetheless. https://claude.ai/public/artifacts/275dc3c2-7bd3-432b-94ff-d...

Thanks. Your result is what I would expect - nice stuff, but far from what he supposedly "casually" generated.

Re: Karpathy’s Pelican

#426

I’m exploring an analogous idea for music. The quality of the musical output has improved noticeably with the latest frontier models Karpathy’s point about the models not being able to easily audit their work is something I’m struggling with —- how can the audio output be made perceivable? Curious what people think about this question. Here’s a synth to play with+remix https://underscore.audio/s/cmp_8b226859-420/iron…

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Re: Karpathy’s Pelican

#427

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I guess I just don't have an intuition for why that is different from what it does for non-"spatial" things. Like the fact that it works is still because it produced the code it did token by token. Whether its dealing with, e.g., " beside the rock" or " in the array", it's doing the same kind of inferential activity.

If you're at (-2, 3, 5), pointing in the (2, 1, -1) direction (as a direction vector), then which is in front of the other from your point of view: the object at (4, 5, -8) or the one at (6, 4, 3)? (or neither) You can't just defer this decision to the three.js program because you need to understand this sort of relationship yourself if you're going to suitably place objects (and your own view) in a three.js scene in…

I think of all these responses this articulates my point the most. If humans would struggle with it, why is it still supposed to be "spatial reasoning"? And underspecified or not, you frame this exactly in the way an LLM would tackle this: if I am making a game, I don't place objects in arbitrary positions in a space and try to keep it all in my head, but in relations to one another. Then, the point in front of another is the one where A-B>0.

Re: Karpathy’s Pelican

#428

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Taking a single paragraph of literary text, which is abstract and ambiguous, and converting it into a 3D animation requires an enormous amount of implicit knowledge about spatial relationships, intuitive physics, everyday objects, and so forth. Not to mention the mathematics of 3D transformations and computer graphics more generally. Saying that it's indicative of no more than three.js coding ability is absurd.

Why does it require knowledge about spatial relationships?

quite loaded words there. "knowledge", "relationships".

the llm must be able to output the correct code when the input says something like 'place object x to the left of object y' vs when it says 'to the right'. there is an absurd combinatorial space of the possible inputs vs outputs it must generate -> the whole set of these, interpreted from a human point of view, you could call knowledge. the [x] in input x output you could call the relationships. And the fact that the LLM doesn't have to brute force represent all of them (impossible in the limited embedding vector x internal representation state) you could interpret as 'understanding'. But again, these are loaded words that are somewhat meaningless when looking at what an LLM does in a literal way.

They have plenty graphics code to train from, so this structure will be directly or indirectly available in the training data in a very plentiful way.

In literal llm transformer terms, the embeddings must have some of their components statistically represent spatial structure in some way that later in the internal layers of the LLM give some statistics of how likely it is to occur for certain code tokens to appear relative to the input of spatial wording in the token stream.

it is likely that their internal representations encode something more general than specific input x output stream combinations (because we already know this is the case for regular words and concepts). if not in the embeddings, then a couple layers into the network for sure.

Re: Karpathy’s Pelican

#429

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This doesn't explain the lack of marketing. Apache isn't exactly known for pushing tech. Google never tried to improve on gmail.

Google Inbox was amazing and I still mourn it regularly. The features they backported into gmail do not capture its essence. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inbox_by_Gmail

Oh, true. But that was fundamentally still email.

Re: Karpathy’s Pelican

#430
post #411

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It tests for the "I" in "AI".

So if we test models that only output text to directly generate waveforms of sound from text or binary code, or directly generating binary code to replace a compiler, does that mean it is "intelligent"? Does that even test for intelligence? This is like testing if a horse can fly just because someone showed an image of a Pegasus, or testing if a fish can climb up a tree and believing they are not intelligent because…

I'm not sure where you are coming from, but we are testing a model that can create images to create an image for us. If it can't even do that well then I'm not sure why we need to talk about horses here.

Pulling things into the ridiculous isn't condusive to a good faith discussion and does not help proving pseudoscientificness which you seem to be after. (I don't belive that the pelican bicycle test is meant to be a serious scientific endeavour, btw.)

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