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Read the novels and forget everything else

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Re: Read the novels and forget everything else

#91

Post by the_af »

SanjayMehta wrote: post #51
the_af wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I dunno. In the case of Herriot, whose books I utterly love, I only half believed in my teenage years they were truly autobiographical (too funny, too neat to be true), and I wasn't surprised when I found they weren't. Well, they have some tidbits from his actual life, but yeah, a blend of multiple stories, some from others, some made up. I still believe they are undiminished as books and enjoy them from time to time…

I don't know if Herriot was a vet in real life. If he was and suffered from depression it wouldn't surprise me. I have seen statistics which state that vets more likely to commit suicide than GPs. And the story about the young man and his dog rings true. A close friend always breaks up when he remembers how he had to put down his dog due to cancer.

Herriot was a vet in real life. His stories were embellished, but they weren't entirely made up either! That's why they felt so authentic.

Re: Read the novels and forget everything else

#92

Post by matwood »

jimnotgym wrote: post #74

Well after that article and these comments, I need to burn a lot of books, art and music that I once loved. I used to love Millais' 'Ophelia', but he now seems arrogant and even bedded his patrons wife. The scandal. On the fire. I used to love the Rolling Stones, but it seems they took drugs and held concerts organised by an organised crime group. On the fire. Master and Commander was one of the most touching and upl…

I'm not religious, but this quote often comes to mind in these situations, "he who is without sin, cast the first stone." Clearly everyone else is perfect, and only these authors had faults.

Re: Read the novels and forget everything else

#94

Post by jimnotgym »

ComputerPerson wrote: post #83
jimnotgym wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Really, the article referenced a few snippets of information, none of which is new. Its like the press only knew 5 things about him and they were all bad, so keep going. I can't bring myself to be so judgemental. He once lost his temper in a restaurant, he left his wife (and maybe she was lovely, maybe she did something terrible), he wrote under an assumed name (and the point?). Which one triggered you? Is hardly a c…

I greatly enjoy the pastime of understanding the various takes on the personal lives of artists. Many are quite pleasant humans. I read novels on the subject. "the private lives of the impressionists" by Sue Roe is a fantastic read. I came out of it with a passion for Renoir. To answer your direct question, I find abandoning a fatally-ill child to be the straw that broke the camel's back. Take a look at the quote fro…

But you don't know the circumstances? Just a statement, and one that may not be true. I've seen good people have a complete breakdown over a sick child. Maybe his wife asked him to go? Who knows.

>He admits himself that the journalism is only the surface of his awful character.

And we are to take it literally? That sounds like English self-deprecation to me.

>I read novels on the subject

If I write a novel that shows Patrick O'brien as a tortured genius whose family didn't understand him, and drove him away, presumably you would change your mind on him too?

Did the novel talk about Renoir's antisemitism? His misogyny towards female painters? His stubborness? His nostalgia for Bourbon France? His treatment of models?

See it's pretty easy to do a character assassination.

Re: Read the novels and forget everything else

#95

Post by [deleted] »

jimnotgym wrote: post #94
ComputerPerson wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I greatly enjoy the pastime of understanding the various takes on the personal lives of artists. Many are quite pleasant humans. I read novels on the subject. "the private lives of the impressionists" by Sue Roe is a fantastic read. I came out of it with a passion for Renoir. To answer your direct question, I find abandoning a fatally-ill child to be the straw that broke the camel's back. Take a look at the quote fro…

But you don't know the circumstances? Just a statement, and one that may not be true. I've seen good people have a complete breakdown over a sick child. Maybe his wife asked him to go? Who knows. >He admits himself that the journalism is only the surface of his awful character. And we are to take it literally? That sounds like English self-deprecation to me. >I read novels on the subject If I write a novel that shows…

[deleted]

Re: Read the novels and forget everything else

#96

Post by ComputerPerson »

jimnotgym wrote: post #94
ComputerPerson wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I greatly enjoy the pastime of understanding the various takes on the personal lives of artists. Many are quite pleasant humans. I read novels on the subject. "the private lives of the impressionists" by Sue Roe is a fantastic read. I came out of it with a passion for Renoir. To answer your direct question, I find abandoning a fatally-ill child to be the straw that broke the camel's back. Take a look at the quote fro…

But you don't know the circumstances? Just a statement, and one that may not be true. I've seen good people have a complete breakdown over a sick child. Maybe his wife asked him to go? Who knows. >He admits himself that the journalism is only the surface of his awful character. And we are to take it literally? That sounds like English self-deprecation to me. >I read novels on the subject If I write a novel that shows…

He's quoted as saying the truth is worse than the journalism, and you're brushing off the worst part as "may not be true".

It's relevant to the discussion that I care a lot about their romantic relationships ending amicably. It's not the least bit unusual for this to not be the case, and very much open to interpretation regarding their character, but I do care about it personally.

The flaws of Renoir bother me less. I think you or your source are off about his misogyny toward female painters. In fact, I enjoy his story for the very reason of his treatment of the women he was involved with romantically. Perhaps you're confusing him with Manet or Monet, both of whom were bad on that front (Manet guilty of being a womanizer as well). Regardless, even if he was, he was the least misogynistic of the original bunch (Manet, Monet, Pizarro, Degas, etc.), which is good enough for me.

[edit] congrats by the way, you've convinced me that my general outlook on the subject was flawed

Re: Read the novels and forget everything else

#97

Post by causality0 »

jay_kyburz wrote: post #25
ChrisMarshallNY wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I still like those books, and, for some reason, that didn't affect me. Other people, however, have. Science fiction/fantasy has a long, turgid history of weird and unsavory authors. I tend to ignore that. I think books have a firewall between the author and the characters on the page. Actors, however, are a different matter. They are the medium.

I've always enjoyed H P Lovecraft and was disappointed to learn about his racism and xenophobia. AI tells me its was way beyond what was normal at the time.

The AI is incorrect. Lovecraft's views largely reflected the white societal norm, particularly the "scientific racism" of time, and they softened considerably near the end of his life. His letters from the time mention that several of his earlier depictions of race were unfair. If he hadn't died so young I suspect we would have seen a very significant shift in his views.

Re: Read the novels and forget everything else

#98

Post by fenomas »

vvbull wrote: post #60
jay_kyburz wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've always enjoyed H P Lovecraft and was disappointed to learn about his racism and xenophobia. AI tells me its was way beyond what was normal at the time.

And, for me, it recontextualizes a lot of his writing knowing his racism. Who he thought "the other" was and how they appeared in his work is colored by who he thought the other was in real life.

Related, I read Lovecraft for the first time a while back and the xenophobia was so overt it was almost humorous.

The story was basically a police detective uncovering ritual cult activity by immigrants (from some unspecified place) in a NY slum. And the narrator (the detective) goes on and on about these strange foreigners and their dark skin, weird languages, heathen religions, etc.

But it only occurred to me after finishing that, though the reader is told from the start that weird cult stuff will ensue, the detective doesn't actually find anything nefarious until pretty late in the story. So with the story's timeline it's mostly just a cop being suspicious of foreigners for being foreign, until many months later he suddenly discovers unspeakable horrors of etc. etc.

Re: Read the novels and forget everything else

#99

Post by GJim »

jay_kyburz wrote: post #25
ChrisMarshallNY wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I still like those books, and, for some reason, that didn't affect me. Other people, however, have. Science fiction/fantasy has a long, turgid history of weird and unsavory authors. I tend to ignore that. I think books have a firewall between the author and the characters on the page. Actors, however, are a different matter. They are the medium.

I've always enjoyed H P Lovecraft and was disappointed to learn about his racism and xenophobia. AI tells me its was way beyond what was normal at the time.

> AI tells me

You are using AI to form personal opinions?

Re: Read the novels and forget everything else

#100

Post by wduquette »

wombatpm wrote: post #23
dwd wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You have to question what of the person filtered through to their works. As a teen I voraciously read my way through the Belgariad, and later the Malloreon, Elenium and the Tamuli. Shocked to learn that Eddings and his wife were both convicted and jailed for child abuse prior to writing those novels.

I stopped after Malloreon more because my interests changed. Finding out their history hasn’t changed anything for me. But Marion Zimmerman Bradley for some reason has and I have no desire to read any of her books ever again.

I stopped reading Eddings because after a while I realized that all of these fun, bantering characters I so enjoyed were (except for Garion, mostly) truly awful people and that I didn't want to spend any more time with them. That was after I'd re-read them many times, and long before any revelations about the author. (Really, Polgara? Your reaction to being balked is to smash everything in sight? You haven't matured at all in your vastly long life?)

As for MZB, I agree completely. No desire at all.

WRT to O'Brian, though--it's clear, as the OP notes, that he knew his faults, recognizes them in his characters, particularly Maturin, and shows them for what they are. To put it another way, his faults don't "poison" his books from within.

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