Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

EU Age Verification Project Mandates Hardware-Bound Attestation

linuxiac.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

71–80 of 206 posts

Re: EU Age Verification Project Mandates Hardware-Bound Attestation

#71

Post by thmryth »

jmyeet wrote: post #24
big85 wrote: post #18

All this ostensibly to keep teenage boys from watching Pornhub (when parental controls already exist). The real reason, of course, is to force people to connect strong real-life identifiers to online activity. Mobile first, then Windows. Then Linux is too weak to oppose on its own, and will adapt or die.

That's a completely unhelpful, overly simplistic straw man argument. We restrict certain activities and places in the real world from certain people all the time. For example, not allowing people under 18 or 21 (depending on your country) into casinos. What we have now is essentially unrestricted access to pretty much anything and a fair assessment is that there is societal harm from that. We're creating gambling add…

[flagged]

Re: EU Age Verification Project Mandates Hardware-Bound Attestation

#72

Post by jolmg »

dgroshev wrote: post #69
jolmg wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The surveillance is implicit and hidden. If we understand that it’s nearly impossible for a non-tech person to avoid being tracked by corporations and governments, then we start working on the things that really help: super tight regulations about what can and can’t be tracked. We can't get perfect privacy so we should normalize not having any? Leave it to the government we're distrusting to handle our privacy? > I…

Just a few decades years ago, everyone's names and phones in the US were freely available to anyone with a phone book. Communications were done in the clear, either via letters (hardly tamper-proof), or via phone (that anyone with access could tap). Did every American live in a "surveillance state" back then?

What could be tracked from phones back then compared to now is completely different. Phones are basically only called "phones" for historical reasons.

Re: EU Age Verification Project Mandates Hardware-Bound Attestation

#73

Post by wmf »

afandian wrote: post #4

I don't understand where the all the EU anti-trust and anti-corruption regulators are here. _Governments_ enforcing that you have a Google or Apple account to participate in society is transparently absurd. This isn't only a digital sovereignty issue, it's also an anti-competition issue.

Their solution is to "force open" iOS and Android through the DMA, not to create competition which they know won't work.

Re: EU Age Verification Project Mandates Hardware-Bound Attestation

#74

Post by zb3 »

big85 wrote: post #18

All this ostensibly to keep teenage boys from watching Pornhub (when parental controls already exist). The real reason, of course, is to force people to connect strong real-life identifiers to online activity. Mobile first, then Windows. Then Linux is too weak to oppose on its own, and will adapt or die.

> The real reason, of course, is to force people to connect strong real-life identifiers to online activity.

This is worse than that, this paves a way for corporations to shove anti-user crap (adware, spyware, "sideloading" restrictions etc) to devices that are mandatory for you.. and in a way you can't fight it, because now government is protecting that crap without even realizing it.

It's one thing that I can't install a custom OS on my credit card.. but it's a different thing when that device is actively connected to the network, sending my data to some US company, prevents me from removing bloatware / installing my own software.. and on top of that displays ads.

Re: EU Age Verification Project Mandates Hardware-Bound Attestation

#75

Post by dgroshev »

jolmg wrote: post #72
dgroshev wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just a few decades years ago, everyone's names and phones in the US were freely available to anyone with a phone book. Communications were done in the clear, either via letters (hardly tamper-proof), or via phone (that anyone with access could tap). Did every American live in a "surveillance state" back then?

What could be tracked from phones back then compared to now is completely different. Phones are basically only called "phones" for historical reasons.

So what? Some things are exceptionally hard to track now (like e2ee messages) that were trivial to track back then.

Every remote communication could only be had in the clear. Everyone was fine with that. Was the US in the 80s a surveillance state?

Re: EU Age Verification Project Mandates Hardware-Bound Attestation

#76

Post by SoftTalker »

akersten wrote: post #31
jmyeet wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's a completely unhelpful, overly simplistic straw man argument. We restrict certain activities and places in the real world from certain people all the time. For example, not allowing people under 18 or 21 (depending on your country) into casinos. What we have now is essentially unrestricted access to pretty much anything and a fair assessment is that there is societal harm from that. We're creating gambling add…

What's simplistic and unhelpful is falling for the narrative that infinite scroll, boobies, and algorithmic feeds are somehow more harmful than ubiquitous government surveillance of the most powerful communication tool on earth. The Internet, more or less, has been around 30+ years and the Something awful and 4chan generations are now in charge. We're not much worse off. The Internet is actually way tamer these days…

"Boobies" really understates what is available virtually unrestricted on Pornhub and similar sites. If "boobies" were the extent of it, far fewer people would be worried about it.

Re: EU Age Verification Project Mandates Hardware-Bound Attestation

#77

Post by pembrook »

tzs wrote: post #32
afandian wrote: post #4

I don't understand where the all the EU anti-trust and anti-corruption regulators are here. _Governments_ enforcing that you have a Google or Apple account to participate in society is transparently absurd. This isn't only a digital sovereignty issue, it's also an anti-competition issue.

My understanding is that you are not forced to use this. Sites in the EU that will be required to verify user age will be free to use any method they wish as long as they can show it is as effective as the app and it does not violate privacy laws. Most analysts expect sites will offer multiple ways, for a variety of reasons. Eventually when the full EU Digital Identity Wallet is available age checks can be done using…

I literally lol'd at the "Most analysts expect..." line.

Yea, most analysts didn't expect the cookie banner nightmare we're living in either.

To think you can get only the narrow outcomes you want with zero unintended consequences while building root-level infrastructure for 1984 just illustrates the laughable hubris of the authoritarian impulse.

Re: EU Age Verification Project Mandates Hardware-Bound Attestation

#78

Post by jryle70 »

matheusmoreira wrote: post #50
0x000xca0xfe wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Then the solution could be just like the solution to tobacco addiction: tax social media companies HARD, tax all advertising on social media 10x, 20x, or ban advertising on/for social media outright, ban advertising of kids products, ban showing use of social media in movies not rated 18, ... the problem will vanish just like cigarettes. But no, that's not what governments are doing. They want control and surveillanc…

Taxing or banning advertising alone would fix literally everything that is wrong with the web.

Do you know what happen when advertising is banned? It would go underground -- product placement, contest, merchandises, and so on. Advertising existed as soon as commerce became a thing, probably thousand years ago. It can't be banned. I wouldn't vote for that.

Regulation, on the other hand, is fine. How? I don't know.

Re: EU Age Verification Project Mandates Hardware-Bound Attestation

#79

Post by zb3 »

filleokus wrote: post #47
WhyNotHugo wrote: post #2

> Linux is not explicitly banned. Desktop Linux users could access a website and scan a QR code using a supported mobile wallet. That's a weird way of putting it. You'll basically need a second non-Linux device if you want to use Linux. If your reason for using Linux is "I want to continue using old hardware instead of quickly-obsoleted devices", then you're shit outta luck: you'll have to buy a (potentially second)…

If you want to actually enforce age restrictions that can be checked via some kind of digital identity I don't see how we can avoid the "trusted" hardware requirement. The key material must be DRM'ed, especially if some ZKP solution is used. Otherwise all underage kids would download the cool older brothers private key and load it into their GNU Taler client, buy wine and be gateway'ed into heavier Stallmanisms. Befo…

> I don't see how we can avoid the "trusted" hardware requirement.

While this is a good point, what's missing here is that this hardware doesn't have to have Google spyware and other bloatware installed. Yet with current design, this becomes mandatory.. security requirements are abused here to force unrelated software on my computer that I have to carry with me in order to participate in society.

This app should work on a dedicated device, something like a smartcard with e-ink display.. it would even be more secure because it would have less attack surface. Just like today I'm not complaining about not being able to install linux on my credit/SIM card, I'd not complain about that either. But locking down the whole OS on my smartphone is unacceptable.

Re: EU Age Verification Project Mandates Hardware-Bound Attestation

#80

Post by pembrook »

matheusmoreira wrote: post #63
tzs wrote: post #60

It should be noted that this app is temporary. The EU is aiming for a digital wallet app that you can store your identity documents in and that you can use to prove facts about those documents to third parties, in a way where the third party gets no extra information--just what you chose to disclose (e.g., just your age or just your country) and that cannot be used to link your real identity to your using the site ev…

> It should be noted that this app is temporary. Don't believe that for a second. Nothing is so permanent as a temporary government program.

The concept of an income tax was originally supposed to be temporary.
Post reply on HN