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German carmakers flood jobs market with managers after wielding axe

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Re: German carmakers flood jobs market with managers after wielding axe

#51

Post by HAL3000 »

Johanx64 wrote: post #48
est31 wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah with China pumping state subventions into car manufacturing, they can outcompete any car manufacturer anywhere in the world. The leading battery technology is in Asia anyways. The German car industry will not die completely, as the EU can protect its market from chinese manufacturers through regulation. But it will shrink and transform. Probably also back to fossil fuels (yuck), because there the Germans still h…

Man, every time where there's a Chinese product category you realistically can't compete with - it's always some excuse of - because Chinese state is subsidizing it and supporting it. All it does is simply makes the Chinese government sound good and competent. Oh, nice, a government that does good things that lead to good outcomes! How unusual, how unexpected! That's basically cheating! We can't realistically have ou…

It's an interesting comparison. In China they prop up businesses with cheap loans and help from local governments, in the US it's the VCs. So when Uber was subsidized then everything was ok, but when China state propped up EVs then suddenly it's not ok. These subsidies in the majority of cases are over btw, because competition was too big in China between carmakers, cars in China are ridiculously cheap. Because that's their strategy, you fund a lot of players, like there were 100+ EV makers in China, then you let the market do its job, they optimize or they die, some will die and the best will prevail. Margins are so low in China that they are looking at outside markets where legacy carmakers need to drop the margins and scale up or they will have no chance in competing. And for the argument that they do it to kill the industry so then they can make cars for more price, the most obvious counterargument is why they didn't do it for everything else that they dominate already? Why are solar panels going down? They dominate the world in solar panels, there is basically no competition and prices are still going down, same with batteries.

Re: German carmakers flood jobs market with managers after wielding axe

#52

Post by Arnt »

sajithdilshan wrote: post #27
est31 wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah with China pumping state subventions into car manufacturing, they can outcompete any car manufacturer anywhere in the world. The leading battery technology is in Asia anyways. The German car industry will not die completely, as the EU can protect its market from chinese manufacturers through regulation. But it will shrink and transform. Probably also back to fossil fuels (yuck), because there the Germans still h…

Last time the Germans got into defence technology, it didn’t end well for the whole world. Let’s hope it wouldn’t be the case this time

Germany is currently the world's fourth biggest weapons exporter, and AIUI that's roughly how it has been for decades.

Re: German carmakers flood jobs market with managers after wielding axe

#53

Post by antonkochubey »

sajithdilshan wrote: post #25
leonidasrup wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

German car industry can produce state of art ICE, because they can manufacture the heart of ICE - the engine. German car industry is trailing with EVs, because they can not manufacture the heart of EV - the battery.

I think the biggest problem with German EVs are not the battery but the software. EVs are practically computers on a wheel and compared to the competitors the software and features it offers are still terrible. I remember VW even had a huge joint venture with Rivian to get things back on track. But seems like it didn’t work out

>EVs are practically computers on a wheel

There’s nothing about EV drivetrain that requires more complicated software than ICE powertrain. It’s just consumerism telling people that their next vehicle (whatever drivetrain) should be an iPad, a home cinema, and a PlayStation all-in-one.

Re: German carmakers flood jobs market with managers after wielding axe

#54

Post by nradov »

hn_throwaway_99 wrote: post #45
leonidasrup wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

German car industry can produce state of art ICE, because they can manufacture the heart of ICE - the engine. German car industry is trailing with EVs, because they can not manufacture the heart of EV - the battery.

I hope they can compete with plugin hybrids. We have a BMW X5 plugin hybrid, bought on the advice of a friend, and it's such a great car. Almost always on electric in town, and for the rare times we go on road trips we never have to worry about range anxiety. I really feel that plugin hybrids with 40-50 miles of electric range are the ideal car for like 85%+ of Americans whose usual daily commute could all be done on…

I think you're directionally correct. But that BMW will likely turn into a maintenance nightmare in 10 years when electronics modules start failing and new replacement parts are no longer available. Might be best to lease it instead of buying for those who can afford that option.

Re: German carmakers flood jobs market with managers after wielding axe

#55

Post by nradov »

calvinmorrison wrote: post #42
sajithdilshan wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you misunderstood my comment, I was talking about different layers of management. Not different roles like accounting or sales etc. but there is absolutely no reason to have 10 different layers of management.

for someone like VAG or UPS why not? You can only remember/cram so much context into a single persons head, at some point you gotta split it up. In IT, you rarely see companies having managers with more than 6 direct reports. Of course in retail that number can bump up. But if you have a 4 or 5 thousand employees - you'll have 6 layers. Of course there are ways around it (I worked at F500 where i only talked to my bo…

Sure, but as a point of comparison the Roman Catholic Church has even more people worldwide and manages to make do with only 4 management layers. (I'm referring to those in religious orders only, not secular employees of various Catholic businesses and charities.)

Re: German carmakers flood jobs market with managers after wielding axe

#57

Post by lysace »

tcfhgj wrote: post #46
eska wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Out of the last 28 years they have spent only 4 in the opposition. SPD together with CDU are the two major parties shaping Germany. As opposition they also always had a majority veto right.

they wrote SPD/Die Grünen, not SPD/CDU

To be fair I also blame all of Germany.

Re: German carmakers flood jobs market with managers after wielding axe

#58

Post by illiac786 »

chewz wrote: post #37
nxm wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

If by heavy subsidies you mean - encouraging internal competition, securing cheap energy and educating thousands of engineers then yes, Chinese cars are subsidized. If by heavy subsidies you mean pocketing 150 billions of dollars from EU R&D budget for innovation that have never happened then no, Chinese cars manufacturers are not subsidized.

I‘m interested in reading about the 150 billions. Do you have a good source?

Re: German carmakers flood jobs market with managers after wielding axe

#59

Post by freefaler »

toomuchtodo wrote: post #50
Johanx64 wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Man, every time where there's a Chinese product category you realistically can't compete with - it's always some excuse of - because Chinese state is subsidizing it and supporting it. All it does is simply makes the Chinese government sound good and competent. Oh, nice, a government that does good things that lead to good outcomes! How unusual, how unexpected! That's basically cheating! We can't realistically have ou…

Capitalism and free markets failed to deliver, lots of cope around that mental model. If it was superior, it would’ve succeeded. China is 1/3rd of global manufacturing capacity, and it shows. Play to win.

It was the market that delivered BYD and Xiaomi. The government did his part with industrial policy and inviting Tesla to China to help start the ecosystem, but the brutal competition between Chinese auto makers following the rules of capitalism and free-market made those who survive the ones that can compete with other global companies. Before that they just subsidised and all they got were regional "champions" that siphoned out the funds and created shitty products no one wanted.

After Tesla came with special laws allowing it to work without Chinese co-ownership, but with a mandate to source from Chinese suppliers, this created the ecosystem needed for the next iteration, by the capitalist urge of Elon to get into the market and by free-market economy of suppliers to Tesla that are up to the standards to supply it.

The government set up the battlefield, and let the free-maket filter the strongest to survive.

In the Western countries the government and regulations are frequently the bane of the car companies. Good luck opening a mine or a battery factory in Germany, regulation, unions, green mandates, 36 hr. week. You can't fight with 1 leg tied.

Re: German carmakers flood jobs market with managers after wielding axe

#60

Post by toomuchtodo »

freefaler wrote: post #59
toomuchtodo wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Capitalism and free markets failed to deliver, lots of cope around that mental model. If it was superior, it would’ve succeeded. China is 1/3rd of global manufacturing capacity, and it shows. Play to win.

It was the market that delivered BYD and Xiaomi. The government did his part with industrial policy and inviting Tesla to China to help start the ecosystem, but the brutal competition between Chinese auto makers following the rules of capitalism and free-market made those who survive the ones that can compete with other global companies. Before that they just subsidised and all they got were regional "champions" that…

This narrative overweights free market competition in China and any influence Tesla or Musk might have had versus the $230B in subsides provided to the Chinese EV industry over 14 years (2009-2023), with over ~$1.5B provided to CATL alone (although Tesla did receive ~$17B in total government subsidies in the US). Tesla did not begin production in China until October 2019.

If there’s any hero story here, its the will of the CCP to provide this level of support and subsidy to the Chinese battery and EV industries as part of their five year plans. This is why China can build ~20M EVs per year, Europe ~4.6M, and the US can build ~2-3M.

I understand this deeply challenges the ideas and belief systems around the cult of personality of risk taking entrepreneurs and entrepreneurship being something more than a series of successful calculated risks and bets.

https://ev.com/news/csis-study-finds-chinas-ev-industry-boos...

> When it comes to China’s electric vehicles (EV) industry, its market has expanded exponentially compared to other markets. Now, a new study by the Center for Strategic and International Studies (CSIS) has revealed that China’s EV industry received at least $230.8 billion in government support between 2009 and 2023.

> As a result, this major investment has played a pivotal role in China’s rapid progress to become the world’s largest EV market, with sales anticipated to reach 10 million units in 2024.

https://www.csis.org/blogs/trustee-china-hand/chinese-ev-dil...

https://www.csis.org/analysis/coming-nev-war-implications-ch...

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