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Drug reverses autism-like brain changes in adult mice within hours

uclahealth.org

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Re: Drug reverses autism-like brain changes in adult mice within hours

#71

Post by dns_snek »

47282847 wrote: post #32
dns_snek wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I see this sentiment often, but only when it comes to autism. How is this different from other disorders, disabilities, illnesses? You could make the exact same arguments for blindness. Every day is challenging, difficulties are mostly a consequence of how we've structured society, it's other people who should accommodate those who have different needs, etc. This narrative seems to originate from, and is perpetuated…

> How is this different from other disorders, disabilities, illnesses? Not diagnosed autistic myself, but I buy into the argument that a lot of “(mental) disorders” make one allergic to the amount of subtle and less subtle daily dose of interrelational violence. Plenty of drugs exist to numb organisms. I don’t know if you’ve ever been on antidepressants or antipsychotics, but one who has might relate that that kind o…

> It’s up to each one individually to decide how much they want to be part of this “normal” or whether they prefer to be “disordered” even if it comes with certain limitations.

I completely agree.

And I've never been on antidepressants but I take Concerta (stimulant) for ADHD and I've heard many say that they feel like zombies on stimulants.

I've never felt like a zombie, it just takes the "edge" off by making it easier to get started and get things done, makes me slightly better organized, etc.

I think it sucks that some people don't respond well to medication. It's also a given that the freedom to decide on what to do with your body is an enshrined, essential human right.

The problem I have is this: Just like I don't tell them what to do, I expect that they wouldn't berate me for taking the treatment, and for asking for better ones.. yet they do.

When I cheer on the research for a cure, because I want it, for myself, I always get antagonized by the "superpower" crowd, get interrogated under the presumption I'm the second coming of Hitler, get told that I don't really want it, it's just the society making me say that (1. not true; 2. Gee, thanks)... It just never ends and I'm officially out of patience entertaining it. The other responses to my comments in this thread are a good example of that

Re: Drug reverses autism-like brain changes in adult mice within hours

#72

Post by pibaker »

dns_snek wrote: post #69
pibaker wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> because nobody is forcing you to take the cure History about autistic people or mentally ill people in general says otherwise.

Are you reading anything I say? > I'm familiar with the history behind it and I'm on high alert when someone ventures into eugenics

I am not accusing you personally of advocating for eugenics. But whether or not you personally would do has little bearing on what society as a whole will do if given the ability.

It's like someone saying "but I would personally not gamble myself into bankruptcy" when his pro sports gambling legalization stance is challenged. Or like saying it's safe to keep a loaded gun in a house where his mentally unstable cousin lives just because he personally is responsible with firearms.

Re: Drug reverses autism-like brain changes in adult mice within hours

#73

Post by dns_snek »

tavavex wrote: post #50
dns_snek wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree up until this point: > The idea of attempting to engineer the removal of a class of people from society-- people with unique strengths which are necessary for the functioning of that society-- has consequences that are significantly less well-understood than proponents of this idea make it out to be. I'll be the first to pick up my pitchforks at anyone who suggests non-consensual treatments. My point is that…

You don't need a big bad government or other outside entity to have non-consensual treatments. Just make it available to parents, who can make decisions for their children regardless of their wishes or any nuances of the situation. They won't allow kids to grow up and choose for themselves. Does being autistic decrease your chances of finding a partner? That feels like something that should be substantiated, because…

> Does being autistic decrease your chances of finding a partner?

Yes, absolutely. A tiny minority of people with autism are married.

The majority are unemployed.

Suicidal ideation and attempts are something like 1 in 3 (!!)

I think brushing all of this off with "it's not you, it's the society" is a dismissive and harmful attitude, even if it might turn out to be "technically correct".

Re: Drug reverses autism-like brain changes in adult mice within hours

#74

Post by Scandiravian »

dns_snek wrote: post #73
tavavex wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You don't need a big bad government or other outside entity to have non-consensual treatments. Just make it available to parents, who can make decisions for their children regardless of their wishes or any nuances of the situation. They won't allow kids to grow up and choose for themselves. Does being autistic decrease your chances of finding a partner? That feels like something that should be substantiated, because…

> Does being autistic decrease your chances of finding a partner? Yes, absolutely. A tiny minority of people with autism are married. The majority are unemployed. Suicidal ideation and attempts are something like 1 in 3 (!!) I think brushing all of this off with "it's not you, it's the society" is a dismissive and harmful attitude, even if it might turn out to be "technically correct".

Correction: people with an autism diagnosis. You are much more likely to get a diagnosis if you are in contact with the psychiatric healthcare system (e.g. if you are suicidal)

Any statistics done on the subset of autistic people with a diagnosis would therefore be skewed towards the mean of the subset of the general population who are in contact with the psychiatric system

There's a huge number of undiagnosed - estimates range between 90%-98% of people who would fit the criteria for ASD remain undiagnosed. These people remain undiagnosed because they generally live normal lives with jobs, wives, husbands, children, pets, and so on, which provides a support system to help them with the challenges they face

The group of undiagnosed autistic people are however much more likely to be underemployed, i.e. they employed in a much lower position than their education and experience would generally suggest. This is due to the systemic issues they face caused by a lack of accommodations which naturally increases the risk of them having a mental health crisis that puts them in contact with the psychiatric system

Something, something, kettle, something, something, pot

Re: Drug reverses autism-like brain changes in adult mice within hours

#75

Post by ProfessorLayton »

Scandiravian wrote: post #65
dns_snek wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's nothing wrong with being autistic, that's not my assumption and I don't want to "fix" anyone. You're preaching to the choir about the bigots and you're right to be skeptical. I'd never trust anyone who campaigns against autism the way RFK Jr. did (for example). He's clearly just using autism as a political pawn and whatever their underlying motivation might be, I know they that their real intentions are impur…

I think this is an "correlation does not mean causation" situation Is the rate of suicide higher among autistic people because they are autistic or because they face discrimination due to the way we've structured society? One of the reasons why we've seen a large increase in people getting diagnosed with autism in recent years is that society, work environments especially, have become much more demanding. Someone who…

> should we "cure" homosexuality?

Homosexuality is also on a spectrum, and at no point does someone on that spectrum stop functioning in society because they’re gay. Being gay is only an issue because of those around them, there is nothing to “cure”.

The same cannot be said about being high on the ASD scale. Someone high on this scale will have trouble staying alive without a support system, and medicine could be a component of that system.

Re: Drug reverses autism-like brain changes in adult mice within hours

#76

Post by jimnotgym »

dns_snek wrote: post #68
jimnotgym wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are they desperate for the cure, because they are forced to work with people can't accept them for who they are? Because they are exhausted from years of masking, because you can't succeed unless you fit in? Do they desperately want the 'cure'? Or do they want the problem of fitting in to a normie world to go away?

That's a philosophical question that doesn't help people who are suffering. People are alive here and now. Some people will want a cure regardless. And we'll never have a society that's perfectly inclusive and understanding enough of all disorders, so it's just wishful thinking.

They won't get a cure, because autism is not a disease.

It reminds me of the idea that 'curing' people's homosexuality would make them happier. Turns out it is not possible, but in the civilised world we made things so much better for them by just not being shitty and oppressive.

Re: Drug reverses autism-like brain changes in adult mice within hours

#77

Post by Scandiravian »

ProfessorLayton wrote: post #75
Scandiravian wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think this is an "correlation does not mean causation" situation Is the rate of suicide higher among autistic people because they are autistic or because they face discrimination due to the way we've structured society? One of the reasons why we've seen a large increase in people getting diagnosed with autism in recent years is that society, work environments especially, have become much more demanding. Someone who…

> should we "cure" homosexuality? Homosexuality is also on a spectrum, and at no point does someone on that spectrum stop functioning in society because they’re gay. Being gay is only an issue because of those around them, there is nothing to “cure”. The same cannot be said about being high on the ASD scale. Someone high on this scale will have trouble staying alive without a support system, and medicine could be a c…

For the majority of autistic people (ASD-1), their issues are also solely caused by those around them

As I said in my original post that spawned this thread (and I think in one or two other posts as well), people who are ASD-3 is a case where I would hope we could get better treatment options, but I'm worried about the implications such a "cure" would have for the ASD-1 part of the population

My question about whether we should cure homosexuality is naturally preposterous, exactly because the issues they face are exclusively caused by their surroundings

When the poster I responded cited a high suicide rate among autistic people as support for why a "cure" should be pursued as well as equating it to other "disorders/diseases/illness" in general, I wanted to highlight the absurdity of such a line of reasoning

My main point is that shit is complicated. There are people who need and deserve better treatment options, but ignoring how people who have not conformed to societal expectations have been treated throughout history (and in many cases continues to be treated) is foolish and dangerous

Re: Drug reverses autism-like brain changes in adult mice within hours

#79

Post by munksbeer »

Scandiravian wrote: post #74
dns_snek wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Does being autistic decrease your chances of finding a partner? Yes, absolutely. A tiny minority of people with autism are married. The majority are unemployed. Suicidal ideation and attempts are something like 1 in 3 (!!) I think brushing all of this off with "it's not you, it's the society" is a dismissive and harmful attitude, even if it might turn out to be "technically correct".

Correction: people with an autism diagnosis. You are much more likely to get a diagnosis if you are in contact with the psychiatric healthcare system (e.g. if you are suicidal) Any statistics done on the subset of autistic people with a diagnosis would therefore be skewed towards the mean of the subset of the general population who are in contact with the psychiatric system There's a huge number of undiagnosed - esti…

My son is autistic. He massively struggles with life. I weep sometimes after some of his meltdowns, where he says he hates himself and wishes he didn't exist.

We do our best, and I hope we can help him learn the correct coping mechanisms. But reading some of the posts here make me quite enraged. He has a medical condition. It is called ASD. Would I medicate him if it meant he had a better chance of living a happier life? In a blink.

Re: Drug reverses autism-like brain changes in adult mice within hours

#80

Post by munksbeer »

pibaker wrote: post #67
_DeadFred_ wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Anecdotally, I watched parents of autistic children become ghosts/shells of who they were. It seemed like much higher divorce rates, and towards the kids reaching highschool just single, burnt out mothers barely holding things together with no social life and their world reduced to just their kid(s). The cure shouldn't just be up to the kids, but to the invisible caregivers who give up way more than average parents.

The idea that children should be the ones to receive "treatment" for their parents' disorder is the more ghoulish thing I have heard in a while. Not only that, but to take away the children's ability to decide too. If a religious parent becomes sad and divorced because his child came out as gay, should conversion therapy be prescribed just so the parent can stay happily married?

Father of an autistic child here. If I could "cure" his negative symptoms with medication, I'd choose it in a blink.

Caveat being, I would have to see how it impacted the rest of his personality.

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