Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Europe EV Sales BEVs Jump 50% & Reach 26% Market Share

cleantechnica.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

51–60 of 192 posts

Re: Europe EV Sales BEVs Jump 50% & Reach 26% Market Share

#51

Post by Rohansi »

pinkyboy wrote: post #37
thebruce87m wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Best charging experience and best software experience. Note: I do not want this to be true. Other companies please copy what Tesla has done with both of these. You’ve had years to do this and failed.

Charging experience? Teslas can't charge as fast as a modern Kia, Lucid, Geely, or BYD. They can't two-gun charge like a BYD. They don't have battery-swaps like NIO. They've got a single charge port in a back corner... very unclear what's best about them. And as for software, on the infotainment side, AA/CP are great (but not available on Tesla), and people often like having _some_ physical controls, which goes again…

> Charging experience?

They have a very reliable charging network with excellent coverage. You just plug your car in and it charges. No fiddling with the charger or apps.

> And as for software, on the infotainment side, AA/CP are great (but not available on Tesla)

The infotainment is good enough where you don't need AA/CP but that's a very subjective detail. The software also extends outside of your car because you can do a lot from the Tesla phone app. It's your car key, control/schedule/monitor charging, lets you control climate remotely, use GPS to find your car, dashcam, etc... all are standard with a Tesla but unavailable or locked behind a subscription elsewhere.

> If by software you mean FSD (Supervised), I think essentially every major auto lane-keeping + adaptive cruise covers the key use case where FSD is useful: highway slogs.

Agree but FSD (Supervised) is actually getting better over time. You 100% need the latest model/hardware car to see those improvements though. Still needs supervision but far less than you may have seen before.

Re: Europe EV Sales BEVs Jump 50% & Reach 26% Market Share

#52

Post by kcb »

pinkyboy wrote: post #37
thebruce87m wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Best charging experience and best software experience. Note: I do not want this to be true. Other companies please copy what Tesla has done with both of these. You’ve had years to do this and failed.

Charging experience? Teslas can't charge as fast as a modern Kia, Lucid, Geely, or BYD. They can't two-gun charge like a BYD. They don't have battery-swaps like NIO. They've got a single charge port in a back corner... very unclear what's best about them. And as for software, on the infotainment side, AA/CP are great (but not available on Tesla), and people often like having _some_ physical controls, which goes again…

Android Auto and Carplay are better than dealing with just crappy infotainment systems but they still don't make the overall software experience good. You end up with disjointed interface with functionality split between the automakers UI.

FSD is unmatched. Auto lane-keeping and adaptive cruise control don't provide the reactivity that FSD does even for straight highway driving.

Most objective reviews comparing a Model Y and Chinese EVs are far less conclusive than you propose.

Re: Europe EV Sales BEVs Jump 50% & Reach 26% Market Share

#53

Post by Grombobulous »

lotsofpulp wrote: post #39
Grombobulous wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Look again, cheapest R2 is $44,990. Deliveries haven’t started on that trim but they are less than a year away. You are incorrect when you say that Rivian isn’t delivering R2s. Factually untrue. This claim of a $40k+ price gap is absurd.

Oh yes, I see that now. Either way, Tesla has a proven product that is cheaper, so if I’m trying to save money, for all intents and purposes, a Tesla is still thousands cheaper with a far longer track record, plus the option of FSD.

I think you should go look at journalist reviews and impressions of the R2 if you still doubt them. Rivian is also a proven brand, and they also have a self-driving product. And while it isn’t as good as Tesla’s, most customers are pretty happy with basic highway self-driving/adaptive cruise control, as that’s the most fatiguing form of driving.

Only about 12% of Tesla owners have the FSD subscription or purchase according to articles I’ve found on the subject.

This lines up well with Gallup polling that states that less than 20% of Americans even have a desire to own a driverless car in the future: https://news.gallup.com/poll/708683/americans-driverless-car...

Being the cheapest game in town isn’t always the path to success. The RAV4 is at least $5k more in street price than an equivalently specced out Mitsubishi Outlander and Toyota sells a whole lot more RAV4s than Mitsubishis.

In my opinion, the base trim Model Y is probably not being purchased by a lot of non-fleet-style customers. I think that model is a price anchor like a 256GB MacBook Air. Your Uber driver will buy one but someone buying a new car paying the EV price premium rather than a used car really doesn’t want a stripped down experience.

Re: Europe EV Sales BEVs Jump 50% & Reach 26% Market Share

#54

Post by decimalenough »

pinkyboy wrote: post #37
thebruce87m wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Best charging experience and best software experience. Note: I do not want this to be true. Other companies please copy what Tesla has done with both of these. You’ve had years to do this and failed.

Charging experience? Teslas can't charge as fast as a modern Kia, Lucid, Geely, or BYD. They can't two-gun charge like a BYD. They don't have battery-swaps like NIO. They've got a single charge port in a back corner... very unclear what's best about them. And as for software, on the infotainment side, AA/CP are great (but not available on Tesla), and people often like having _some_ physical controls, which goes again…

Tesla wins on charging because Superchargers are ubiquitous and they just work: you can pull up to one and be pretty much guaranteed that you'll be able to charge. This is manifestly not the case for any of the competition.

Re: Europe EV Sales BEVs Jump 50% & Reach 26% Market Share

#55

Post by spapas82 »

Well one interesting thing is that if you want to buy a Toyota Yaris right now in Europe (specifically in Greece) the only options offered are hybrid. One with 116 hp and one with 136 hp. No petrol, no diesel. And only automatic transmission (a no no for me but that another discussion).

Now considering that Yaris is one of the most popular cars (if not the most popular), the increase in sales is not surprising

Re: Europe EV Sales BEVs Jump 50% & Reach 26% Market Share

#56

Post by TacticalCoder »

> Thanks to a number of factors (new cheaper models, high gas prices, mass arrival of Chinese models, etc.), EVs are currently in high demand in Europe.

EVs are in high demand in the EU because laws have been passed in every country and ICE are getting banned in many cities.

Chinese EVs did flood the EU not because people did want to buy chinese EVs: people in the EU were totally fine buying ICE cars (german, french, italian, spanish, ...) but the EU pushed for both legislation and incentives greatly favoring EVs over ICE cars.

It's IMO a good thing to push people to buy EVs. But the EU being the EU, of course they did it incredibly stupidly and managed to inflict great harm to EU car manufacturers and basically hand the keys of the kingdom to both US and chinese EVs (because in the EU we're led by treacherous dumbasses).

People can nitpick as much as they want as to what makes a great car: I do personally have a car from 1988 (38 and a half years old now) that, unlike chinese EVs, doesn't spy on me and that I could still use as a daily (I regularly use it to go, say, pick my kid at school). It's a gas-guzzler and it's not as safe as a modern car, but we definitely could have a talk about the actual CO2 of that car over its lifetime (which is far from done yet) compared to the CO2 over the lifetime of a brand new EV (and if we talk about chinese EVs brought by boat to the EU, we can have a talk too about coal usage in China).

The article could be summed as: "Yay, the EU caused great harm to its car industry and is now buying chinese EVs by the cargo load!".

I take we should... Applaud that great success!?

Re: Europe EV Sales BEVs Jump 50% & Reach 26% Market Share

#57

Post by consumer451 »

npunt wrote: post #44
DennisL123 wrote: post #10

I wish the article was written in a better way. It throws put many percentages in different contexts. 50-26-37-41- … Not saying any particular number is wrong, just wishing it was a clearer way of writing.

They're making the typical journalism mistake of trying to use prose for what would be better expressed in a chart. This is a pretty common issue with journalists who can write but don't know how to create useful and informative charts. I looked at other posts by this author and they're all sales by month charts, which are totally devoid of context as they lack historic trend data. So you have to read words to find t…

> I have firsthand experience starting a news company and dealing with this...

What is the solution for this, from the management POV?

Maybe having a data-viz person as part of the editorial process?

Re: Europe EV Sales BEVs Jump 50% & Reach 26% Market Share

#58

Post by asdff »

aetherspawn wrote: post #49
jfengel wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is remarkable that a US company had an enormous lead in BEVs for a decade. Then they just kinda stopped innovating, and slid backwards.

Having owned a Model 3 I would argue that it’s basically “done” at this point, pending software updates for better FSD. It already charges in 20-30 min at Tesla chargers and has a practical range of around 600 kms, so super fast charging is a bit of a straw man. Their big downfall is they lack an advertising department willing to spend $1B on pro-electric propaganda to debunk all the Trump/big oil propaganda. IMO EVs…

I can’t own one because I can’t install a fast charger at my place.

Re: Europe EV Sales BEVs Jump 50% & Reach 26% Market Share

#59

Post by pinkyboy »

Rohansi wrote: post #51
pinkyboy wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Charging experience? Teslas can't charge as fast as a modern Kia, Lucid, Geely, or BYD. They can't two-gun charge like a BYD. They don't have battery-swaps like NIO. They've got a single charge port in a back corner... very unclear what's best about them. And as for software, on the infotainment side, AA/CP are great (but not available on Tesla), and people often like having _some_ physical controls, which goes again…

> Charging experience? They have a very reliable charging network with excellent coverage. You just plug your car in and it charges. No fiddling with the charger or apps. > And as for software, on the infotainment side, AA/CP are great (but not available on Tesla) The infotainment is good enough where you don't need AA/CP but that's a very subjective detail. The software also extends outside of your car because you c…

And you can plug almost any modern EV into the Tesla supercharging network without issue. However, unlike Teslas, you can _also_ plug and charge them in other networks.

On self-driving: if you want true autonomy, where you can relax and do something else entirely while you drive, the answers are Waymo, Apollo Go, and to a lesser extent: rideshare.

Every other system requires that you sit in the driver's seat, pay attention, and be ready to handle exceptions. Which means that ongoing improvements don't actually buy you much of anything, because having to handle an exception every 50 miles isn't a better experience than having to handle one very 5 miles.

Re: Europe EV Sales BEVs Jump 50% & Reach 26% Market Share

#60

Post by brianwawok »

ezfe wrote: post #19
thebruce87m wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Best charging experience and best software experience. Note: I do not want this to be true. Other companies please copy what Tesla has done with both of these. You’ve had years to do this and failed.

> Best charging experience This isn't accurate - they charge slower and Plug & Charge is common in many vehicles now, including with the Tesla network - whereas Teslas cannot Plug & Charge on other networks.

Sure they can, you can buy a CCS adapter. You are limited a bit by 400V, but honestly I have never been able to not find a Tesla charger - and I’ve done 100k miles around the US over the last 5 years
Post reply on HN