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Drug reverses autism-like brain changes in adult mice within hours

uclahealth.org

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Re: Drug reverses autism-like brain changes in adult mice within hours

#61

Post by dns_snek »

Scandiravian wrote: post #52
dns_snek wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I see this sentiment often, but only when it comes to autism. How is this different from other disorders, disabilities, illnesses? You could make the exact same arguments for blindness. Every day is challenging, difficulties are mostly a consequence of how we've structured society, it's other people who should accommodate those who have different needs, etc. This narrative seems to originate from, and is perpetuated…

OP here The main issue I see with this line of thinking is that there is an underlying/implicit assumption that there is something wrong with being autistic Society has the mental disorders it creates, i.e. autism is only viewed as a disorder because it doesn't fit into the societal structures we have built Not long ago being gay was considered a mental disorder - should we try to find a cure for homosexuality? Most…

There's nothing wrong with being autistic, that's not my assumption and I don't want to "fix" anyone. You're preaching to the choir about the bigots and you're right to be skeptical. I'd never trust anyone who campaigns against autism the way RFK Jr. did (for example). He's clearly just using autism as a political pawn and whatever their underlying motivation might be, I know they that their real intentions are impure so any research they touch is automatically tainted.

Hopefully that clarifies my position on this?

On the flip side I strongly support real scientific research into the treatments of all causes of human suffering, one of them being autism.

To put it simply before diving deeper: Regardless of everything else, I support research into these treatments/cures because there are people who desperately want them, and because their lives would be saved/drastically improved if they had them.

---

A plurality of people with autism experience crisis-level distress. It's been a while since I looked at the research, but from what I remember, the rate of suicidal ideation is worse for people who have a lower level of impairment/support needs. The rate of suicide among people with autism is something like ~5x higher and in some subgroups (lower support needs, comorbid disorders) I believe it's even higher than that - closer to ~10x.

That is why I want there to be a cure for autism, and ADHD, and every ailment that exists. Without it many people experience so much suffering that they have little choice but to kill themselves.

---

I have ADHD so these sorts of discussions affect me directly. People frequently call it a superpower and talk about how great it is. Public discussion is inherently biased towards perspectives of those who are least affected since they participate more and communicate clearly.

The net effect is that people who suffer the least have the loudest voices, they simultaneously reject the idea of treatment without consideration for those who have it worse, and they tend to antagonize people who are worse off for merely suggesting that the disorder is something that anyone would want to get rid of.

I hope you can see how that's problematic?

Re: Drug reverses autism-like brain changes in adult mice within hours

#62

Post by dns_snek »

jimnotgym wrote: post #51
dns_snek wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm well aware and I don't have a problem with you or anyone else living life the way you want. This doesn't explain animosity towards treatment/cure research.

Does it not? When you 'cure' the lateness you lose the superpower too. Now you have another boring normie doing a workmanlike job. I think the reason for the animosity is the assumption that it is it a disease or disorder in the first place. It presumes that rather than being different, it is wrong. Perhaps what is wrong, is neurotypical people insisting that the more gifted people have to be bent and twisted and for…

No it doesn't explain the animosity because nobody is forcing you to take the cure, but there are people who desperately want a cure.

Re: Drug reverses autism-like brain changes in adult mice within hours

#63

Post by dns_snek »

ssl-3 wrote: post #46
dns_snek wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And my words in no way implied that those were equal, or that autism was necessarily an illness or a disability. People often make those arguments and I'm not one of them. You're attacking a straw man.

sigh. > I see this sentiment often, but only when it comes to autism. How is this different from other disorders, disabilities, illnesses? We have a comparative question involving a list of things, here. Let's unroll the list and make separate comparative questions instead: autism. How is this different from other disorders? This works. Autism is a disorder. It can be compared to other disorders. autism. How is this…

Hooray, natural language is often ambiguous and context matters. While that may be one way of interpreting my comment it's not the only one. I've already clarified what I meant so I don't really care for your language policing.

I've expanded my thoughts here if you wish to have a more productive discussion: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=49145950

Re: Drug reverses autism-like brain changes in adult mice within hours

#64

Post by jimnotgym »

dns_snek wrote: post #62
jimnotgym wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Does it not? When you 'cure' the lateness you lose the superpower too. Now you have another boring normie doing a workmanlike job. I think the reason for the animosity is the assumption that it is it a disease or disorder in the first place. It presumes that rather than being different, it is wrong. Perhaps what is wrong, is neurotypical people insisting that the more gifted people have to be bent and twisted and for…

No it doesn't explain the animosity because nobody is forcing you to take the cure, but there are people who desperately want a cure.

Are they desperate for the cure, because they are forced to work with people can't accept them for who they are? Because they are exhausted from years of masking, because you can't succeed unless you fit in? Do they desperately want the 'cure'? Or do they want the problem of fitting in to a normie world to go away?

Re: Drug reverses autism-like brain changes in adult mice within hours

#65

Post by Scandiravian »

dns_snek wrote: post #61
Scandiravian wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

OP here The main issue I see with this line of thinking is that there is an underlying/implicit assumption that there is something wrong with being autistic Society has the mental disorders it creates, i.e. autism is only viewed as a disorder because it doesn't fit into the societal structures we have built Not long ago being gay was considered a mental disorder - should we try to find a cure for homosexuality? Most…

There's nothing wrong with being autistic, that's not my assumption and I don't want to "fix" anyone. You're preaching to the choir about the bigots and you're right to be skeptical. I'd never trust anyone who campaigns against autism the way RFK Jr. did (for example). He's clearly just using autism as a political pawn and whatever their underlying motivation might be, I know they that their real intentions are impur…

I think this is an "correlation does not mean causation" situation

Is the rate of suicide higher among autistic people because they are autistic or because they face discrimination due to the way we've structured society?

One of the reasons why we've seen a large increase in people getting diagnosed with autism in recent years is that society, work environments especially, have become much more demanding. Someone who, 30 years ago, would have been able to function at a high level at home and at work would like struggle much more today

This is not the only reason for the increase in diagnoses, but it's definitely a part of it

The question is then; are these increased demands an inevitability, a law of nature if you will, or is it something we can choose to change?

This is what I mean when I say that society get the mental disorders it creates

There is also a significant higher rate of suicide for the homosexual part of the population compared to the heterosexual part, so again I have to ask: should we "cure" homosexuality?

I have said throughout the thread that I'm conflicted about a "cure". I do believe it could help some people immensely, but for many more people what would help more is a kinder and more compassionate society, where the default assumption isn't that if autistic people don't want to burn out, then they're the ones who'll have to be "fixed"

Re: Drug reverses autism-like brain changes in adult mice within hours

#66

Post by pibaker »

dns_snek wrote: post #62
jimnotgym wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Does it not? When you 'cure' the lateness you lose the superpower too. Now you have another boring normie doing a workmanlike job. I think the reason for the animosity is the assumption that it is it a disease or disorder in the first place. It presumes that rather than being different, it is wrong. Perhaps what is wrong, is neurotypical people insisting that the more gifted people have to be bent and twisted and for…

No it doesn't explain the animosity because nobody is forcing you to take the cure, but there are people who desperately want a cure.

> because nobody is forcing you to take the cure

History about autistic people or mentally ill people in general says otherwise.

Re: Drug reverses autism-like brain changes in adult mice within hours

#67

Post by pibaker »

_DeadFred_ wrote: post #56
Scandiravian wrote: post #8

Being autistic myself, I feel conflicted about trying to "cure autism" Every day is challenging because I have to manage my energy, mask in social situations and at work, etc On the other hand, I like who I am and I'm also very good at what I do because my brain is structured the way it is. I can imagine a society that is structured in a way, where I don't need the accommodations I'm currently dependent on If the neg…

Anecdotally, I watched parents of autistic children become ghosts/shells of who they were. It seemed like much higher divorce rates, and towards the kids reaching highschool just single, burnt out mothers barely holding things together with no social life and their world reduced to just their kid(s). The cure shouldn't just be up to the kids, but to the invisible caregivers who give up way more than average parents.

The idea that children should be the ones to receive "treatment" for their parents' disorder is the more ghoulish thing I have heard in a while. Not only that, but to take away the children's ability to decide too.

If a religious parent becomes sad and divorced because his child came out as gay, should conversion therapy be prescribed just so the parent can stay happily married?

Re: Drug reverses autism-like brain changes in adult mice within hours

#68

Post by dns_snek »

jimnotgym wrote: post #64
dns_snek wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No it doesn't explain the animosity because nobody is forcing you to take the cure, but there are people who desperately want a cure.

Are they desperate for the cure, because they are forced to work with people can't accept them for who they are? Because they are exhausted from years of masking, because you can't succeed unless you fit in? Do they desperately want the 'cure'? Or do they want the problem of fitting in to a normie world to go away?

That's a philosophical question that doesn't help people who are suffering. People are alive here and now.

Some people will want a cure regardless.

And we'll never have a society that's perfectly inclusive and understanding enough of all disorders, so it's just wishful thinking.

Re: Drug reverses autism-like brain changes in adult mice within hours

#69

Post by dns_snek »

pibaker wrote: post #66
dns_snek wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No it doesn't explain the animosity because nobody is forcing you to take the cure, but there are people who desperately want a cure.

> because nobody is forcing you to take the cure History about autistic people or mentally ill people in general says otherwise.

Are you reading anything I say?

> I'm familiar with the history behind it and I'm on high alert when someone ventures into eugenics

Re: Drug reverses autism-like brain changes in adult mice within hours

#70

Post by LocalH »

_DeadFred_ wrote: post #56
Scandiravian wrote: post #8

Being autistic myself, I feel conflicted about trying to "cure autism" Every day is challenging because I have to manage my energy, mask in social situations and at work, etc On the other hand, I like who I am and I'm also very good at what I do because my brain is structured the way it is. I can imagine a society that is structured in a way, where I don't need the accommodations I'm currently dependent on If the neg…

Anecdotally, I watched parents of autistic children become ghosts/shells of who they were. It seemed like much higher divorce rates, and towards the kids reaching highschool just single, burnt out mothers barely holding things together with no social life and their world reduced to just their kid(s). The cure shouldn't just be up to the kids, but to the invisible caregivers who give up way more than average parents.

No. Parents are often the least informed and least capable of making proper medical decisions for their children.
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