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China begins producing advanced chipmaking deep-ultraviolet lithography machines

reuters.com

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Re: China begins producing advanced chipmaking deep-ultraviolet lithography machines

#101
post #84
post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Withholding technology is the only tool we have. If we let them have the tech it's not like they'll start depending on us. They will simply replicate the machinery and then someone else will be writing a comment on Nacker Hews in this alternative Earth about how we were such fools in the West to simply let them have our technology thinking that would make them depend on us. In fact, we have this evidence because all…

> They won't be grateful to us, they won't be dependent on us, they won't be supplicants. Oh no!!! And yea, to think china will be ``equivalent`` to you is such a westoid delusion i dont even know what to tell you maybe keep dreaming

[deleted]

Re: China begins producing advanced chipmaking deep-ultraviolet lithography machines

#102
post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Withholding technology is the only tool we have. If we let them have the tech it's not like they'll start depending on us. They will simply replicate the machinery and then someone else will be writing a comment on Nacker Hews in this alternative Earth about how we were such fools in the West to simply let them have our technology thinking that would make them depend on us. In fact, we have this evidence because all…

> Withholding technology is the only tool we have. The US has the strongest military in the world, tight control of a large part of the world economy, unprecedented cultural soft power, a permanent vetoing seat at the UN security counsel, vast territories, a 50-year headstart in space, thousands of nukes, dozens of cyber organizations with deep roots everywhere. The embargoes and tariffs are literally a skill issue.

[deleted]

Re: China begins producing advanced chipmaking deep-ultraviolet lithography machines

#103
post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Withholding technology is the only tool we have. If we let them have the tech it's not like they'll start depending on us. They will simply replicate the machinery and then someone else will be writing a comment on Nacker Hews in this alternative Earth about how we were such fools in the West to simply let them have our technology thinking that would make them depend on us. In fact, we have this evidence because all…

For highly complex technologies that require tons of capex to get anywhere, Chinese firms are perfectly happy to depend on foreign companies if they are allowed to. Chinese chipmakers weren't willing to use the first batch of domestic DUV machines because they simply weren't as good as foreign alternatives, and this made it doubly difficult for domestic machine manufacturers: they couldn't get revenue for selling mac…

Okay, I think you’re right about some things. Coordinating a market economy is not straightforward. Individual participants will buy what is optimal for them.

By embargoing them we provided a coordination mechanism. Chinese semiconductor manufacturers now had a captive market to sell into and the state was able to incentivize production without too much waste.

But the thing that strikes me is that China was already trying to do this. SMIC et al were already funded by the Big Fund. And they generally succeed in industrial policy. It’s true that a GPU can’t be torn apart and replicated like a car factory can. But they were already trying and they were already attracting sufficient numbers.

I suspect we couldn’t have stopped them. DUV tech like this has been already explored deeply. And the loss is in power and scale - both of which China can compensate for elsewhere. We are power constrained. They are not. If they want to run 3x DCs for every one of ours they can do it.

It’s not like we don’t rent them GPUs. My friends do that. It’s entirely legal and Chinese companies don’t balk at needing to rent B300s. The whole thing isn’t resting on whether they want to capex it or opex it. It’s that they want domestic capability and we needed to trade off building them a coordination mechanism vs slowing them down. And we did this thing and it did that.

In a world where we sell them top of the line GPUs and allow ASML to sell them EUV do we think that the geolock on those devices stops China when they decide to replicate it? Or do you think they succeed at industrial espionage, that their local techs get as good at using the machines as TSMC does, and that they eventually transfer whatever learnings they have to what they can produce?

Re: China begins producing advanced chipmaking deep-ultraviolet lithography machines

#104
post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nobody is stopping the western countries of doing the same exact thing with their own industries. As a matter of fact, the EU and the US are subsiding a lot of their own companies or even entire sectors of their economy (agriculture/arms/space/IT... the list goes on) already so why is it a problem if China does it? You can't complain about something that literally every single country on this planet is doing and then…

Because the tools are somewhat comparable, you seem to have been tricked into conflating "protectionism" (which has some stabilising virtues, especially in the area of agriculture, arms, heavy industries, resources extraction) and "dumping" (which is an aggressive act). There is also something to be said about the scale of it. And of the validity of a world view where "every trick is allowed, everything is for grabs,…

when those tricks benefit the average person in the end whats wrong with them?

subsidy wars give you extra manufacturing capacity that stays there even if the market collapses. economists call it overbuilding like its something wrong but i think "investment above market level" is a lot more accurate.

if everyone price dumps equally, nobody wins and the fight can go on forever. that fight is good for consumers (lower prices), good for producers (higher demand with the same margins), neutral for states and very bad for commercial lenders who deserve it because their business is pure rent extraction. and it will push the industry forward in a permanent way through higher R&D investment.

Re: China begins producing advanced chipmaking deep-ultraviolet lithography machines

#105

After living and working in China 10yrs and fundamentally experiencing the growth rate and culture, it's been a bit horrifying to watch the Western world consistently decide withholding tech from China and giving them no other option but develop their own tech, is a good idea. They are the ultimate long-term planners and I have no doubt the existing gaps will be relatively short lived before China closes them.

China is single-handedly propping up Iran, NK, and Russia financially. If you ahem removed the top 1000 leaders of the CCP tomorrow, those three countries wouldn’t be able to continue their population repression and the world would be an immeasurably better place. Iran killed, what, 20k of their own population earlier this year? Russia has lost 10x that this year alone. Blocking tech from China directly hampers their…

If some nut job ordered assassination of 1000 PRC officials tomorrow, the world would be plunged into apocalyptic, possibly nuclear, war.

It's maybe the worst possible way to handle the situation even if you are a breathless US interventionist.

Re: China begins producing advanced chipmaking deep-ultraviolet lithography machines

#107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

China started these investments long before Trump was on the radar, during later Bush and early Obama. They might have upped it from $10 billion to $20 billion, but the ball was already rolling in 2017.

No, you are wrong. Without the blacklisting and export bans the DUV machine in the article would not exist today.

Absolutely and I'm shocked how unaware people are about this issue. This was massive news. China went from self sufficiency on chips of about 10% after decades to over 33% self sufficiency in just a few years after Trump's trade war of 2017/2018 (which Biden did not back down from and Trump only ramped up in his second term)

And its not just chips. It was seen as a total affront of china moving up the tech value chain. They ramped up EVs, clean energy, industrial software, robotics, etc. The Chinese economy of 2017 is radically different from the Chinese economy economy today.

Re: China begins producing advanced chipmaking deep-ultraviolet lithography machines

#108
post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

^^Please don't do this^^ https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

Do you think they aren't here? It needs to be pointed out, so folks are aware.

Re: China begins producing advanced chipmaking deep-ultraviolet lithography machines

#109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

None of that is inherent. You could have said the same thing a decade ago about vehicle production, or microelectronics a decade before that, and yet here we are. The lesson we should learn from Comac is that China is quite happy to use its local market as a testbed until the technology is mature, and in the same way that it's only a matter of time before Comac has an internationally certified airframe and comes afte…

Sure, none of that is inherent. But do note that China never caught up in internal combustion engines. They had to wait for a fundamental paradigm change to catch up, and were not able to copy ICE technology to a satisfactory level. Similarly, China has been able to make serviceable airframes for decades, it's just until now that they're getting close to price competition - and likely Comac will be more expensive for…

China moved directly to hybrid drivetrains, which is where the future of the internal combustion engine lies. They did this while pushing EV technology, and it gave them a fundamental advantage because low voltage hybrids are not the future of cars.

It's also too early to say whether or not they managed to catch up in ICE technology, because it takes time to put 500k kms on millions of drivetrains, and they haven't been selling cars globally at scale for long enough to pass that litmus test. We're also talking about a moving target; if they went straight to hybrids without perfecting traditional engines, does it really matter? I'm not sure that it does when the fundamental technology is largely the same, and they're putting out hybrid drivetrains in pickups that that eclipse the competition in terms of performance. Maybe the longevity isn't there right now, but it seems naive to claim that they never caught up, when they're right there in the thick of it in the current global market, in all drivetrain technologies that matter.

Re: China begins producing advanced chipmaking deep-ultraviolet lithography machines

#110

After living and working in China 10yrs and fundamentally experiencing the growth rate and culture, it's been a bit horrifying to watch the Western world consistently decide withholding tech from China and giving them no other option but develop their own tech, is a good idea. They are the ultimate long-term planners and I have no doubt the existing gaps will be relatively short lived before China closes them.

On the bright side, they'll basically reinvent the PARC era where actual innovation came because of the inherent limits of the technology at the time. The open weights models coming out are a sterling example.

The bloated american windbags in more ways than one need to be demonstrated again why sloth and bloat and craven "manifest destiny" is just negligence to intelligence and social benefits.

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