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An internal OpenAI Astra model solved 10 major open math and CS problems

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Re: An internal OpenAI Astra model solved 10 major open math and CS problems

#41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is so incredibly liberating to see the intellectual elite struggling with was already reality for 99% of the rest of us: your understanding is not required, it might in fact be detrimental as it amounts to a handbrake on progress. Understanding never was the goal, results were. We will be getting boatloads of those. What does your understanding get us? You get a fancy house out of it and you might be intellectuall…

Same thing on coding - business doesn’t care one bit about your clean architecture or clever design, so long as the AI can change the implementation fast enough to ship whatever product comes up with. People are having a rough time figuring out that good design and fundamentals no longer align with the business side of things.

> business doesn’t care one bit about your clean architecture or clever design

Perhaps not in general, but this is nothing new or related to AI. For one thing software is a strangely private craft - your boss is likely only aware of what you are producing, not the craft or quality (or not) that went into it - the only ones aware of that would be co-workers who are looking at your source code, and perhaps choosing to use it or not. Secondly, the sad truth in business, not just for software developers, is that there is a huge amount of truth in "it's not what you know, it's who you know".

> People are having a rough time figuring out that good design and fundamentals no longer align with the business side of things.

The business may be unaware of what your code looks like, or the expertise that went into it to avoid bad outcomes (immediate or future), but they surely DO care when poor quality software leads to production outages, and customer complaints, and their boss yelling at them as a result. The results of poor quality software will manifest in many ways, not just the poor reliability and performance of your latest release, but also the future outcomes of attempts to build on top of it.

I think it's extremely early to assess the impact of AI software quality and the ways it impacts businesses in these ways, such as production outages, that they do care about. There have certainly been well publicized cases such as AWS outages blamed on AI, but although it seems like an eternity it's only been ~6 months since AI really became usefully competent and capable of "vibe coding", so I think we're only just beginning to see the consequences.

Companies and bosses that have enthusiastically adopted AI are unlikely to point to AI and themselves if/when it proves to be detrimental (AWS were quick to deny it, despite the insider leaks to the contrary), so I'd not be surprised if it takes years rather than months for there to be much clarity on this.

FWIW, I think there is a considerable difference between math, which is what we're really discussing here, and software development, regarding how quickly it will or has fallen to AI. Math is really uniquely suited to LLMs and reinforcement learning of domain-specific reasoning since mathematical papers basically consist of nothing but reasoning (training data!), and it is an entirely theoretical field that essentially lives in the world of language (incl. mathematical notation) without any external grounding. Contrast to software development where what is available to train on is mostly the end result (code) rather than the reasoning that got you there, and there is also a large "experimental" aspect - what happens in the real world when you run the produced artifact.

Re: An internal OpenAI Astra model solved 10 major open math and CS problems

#42

I feel like this kind of "result dump" just cheapens mathematics. How about having a little respect for those whose work this builds on, and current mathematicians some of who may have spent years working on these problems. Rather than sitting on these results until they had enough for a "shock and awe" 10-result dump, how about releasing these results individually as they were made/verified, as well as the failures…

Anti-AI rethoric is getting ridiculous.

Re: An internal OpenAI Astra model solved 10 major open math and CS problems

#43

I’m looking forward to the days where AI would help in tackling the problems in biology. Especially, on creating new drugs, enzymes and understanding the genetic diseases. An absolutely interesting time to live.

Right now it makes your account completely useless if you work on something completely harmless related to viruses. Blocks, downgrades, throttling of answers "to check for safety".

You need to be at a select few institutions to avoid these safety features, which I'm not. University needs to sign some stuff but I that's outside my control.

Re: An internal OpenAI Astra model solved 10 major open math and CS problems

#44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

what are even "results" in mathematics if not understanding? for instance, what's the utility of the counterexamples built by openAI? It seems you're fighting an hallucinated enemy.

One would think something like the study of the square root of negative 1 would have little utility beyond a hand-wavy appeal to understanding, but it turns out to have major practical applications ranging from electrical engineering to 3d rotations. I tend to believe we're still likely at a very primitive level of technology. It's difficult to imagine this primarily because of unknown unknowns. For instance at the e…

Yes, but what will truly advance science is new discoveries that require curiosity and creative thinking, and LLMs are not the technology for this.

As impressive as these mathematical results are, all they represent is known mathematical techniques being combined in ways that humans had not explored. The AI is not inventing areas of math, or even creating it's own conjectures. There will be more of these to follow, but eventually the pace will slow as the space of what can be done with known mathematics is explored.

What is needed for creativity, for new scientific discovery, is more than an auto-regressive LLM assembling someone else's Lego blocks in novel ways - it will require an AI not just built to predict but one that is also built to expand the frontier of what it knows. Prediction failure that results in curiosity and exploration, not hallucination.

We'll get there eventually.

Re: An internal OpenAI Astra model solved 10 major open math and CS problems

#45

I feel like this kind of "result dump" just cheapens mathematics. How about having a little respect for those whose work this builds on, and current mathematicians some of who may have spent years working on these problems. Rather than sitting on these results until they had enough for a "shock and awe" 10-result dump, how about releasing these results individually as they were made/verified, as well as the failures…

Anti-AI rethoric is getting ridiculous.

Go back and re-read. Did I say anything bad about AI?

What I'm talking about is the way OpenAI have handled this. They are in the business of artificial intelligence, striving to create human-level, or even super-human intelligence, and telling us what a wonderful future this will create.

Shouldn't they be celebrating intelligence, especially human intelligence which is what they have bottled here?! LLMs are themselves minimally intelligent - they are primarily regurgitating human intelligence. Without their human training data, these systems would be nothing.

Let's see OpenAI build "GPTZero", an actually intelligent system, that learns for itself, learns language and mathematics from nothing like a baby, then I feel they'd have the right to minimize and cheapen the achievement if they chose to (unlikely). As it is, all they have is a predictor, utterly dependent on HUMAN intelligence, and it would be more becoming of them to acknowledge this by paying a bit more deference and respect to the people who enabled them to build what they have.

FWIW I am not a mathematician.

Re: An internal OpenAI Astra model solved 10 major open math and CS problems

#46

Does anyone else have trouble telling how much of this news (along with the 'AI escaping and hacking' stories) is genuine, vs how much is just AI firms overstating their capabilities due to strong commercial incentives?

These math results appear genuine, and impressive, and it seems they've already been at least provisionally verified.

Of course there is still a massive marketing aspect to this, with the AI companies wanting to you assume that because their product is world-class at math, a capability that is useless to 99.99% of their potential customers, that it will be equally useful in areas that you actually care about, such as managing your vending machine, perhaps :-)

It's hard to know how to interpret these hacking confessions/boasts and what the reality is behind them. I get the impression (with low confidence) that they really did not anticipate or orchestrate these attacks, but it also seems they did little to prevent them, and seem to be happy that they occurred (as you note, a chance to suggest how powerful they are).

I do think that LLMs/agents can be highly capable, and dangerous as hackers, especially if you deliberately train them to be as was the case with Mythos.

There is current news of US water treatment plants being hacked, apparently by Iranian state actors, and we should be glad it was just water treatment plants and not some more critical piece of infrastructure (perhaps power generation or transport, etc). I hate to think what a malicious actor could do with today's SOTA AI if they really wanted to do something destructive, not just send a warning shot.

Re: An internal OpenAI Astra model solved 10 major open math and CS problems

#47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is so incredibly liberating to see the intellectual elite struggling with was already reality for 99% of the rest of us: your understanding is not required, it might in fact be detrimental as it amounts to a handbrake on progress. Understanding never was the goal, results were. We will be getting boatloads of those. What does your understanding get us? You get a fancy house out of it and you might be intellectuall…

Same thing on coding - business doesn’t care one bit about your clean architecture or clever design, so long as the AI can change the implementation fast enough to ship whatever product comes up with. People are having a rough time figuring out that good design and fundamentals no longer align with the business side of things.

> People are having a rough time figuring out that good design and fundamentals no longer align with the business side of things.

That's not true and wasn't true in the sense that businesses don't care directly but they are indirectly. Are you saying business doesn't care if things go down or it doesn't work?

At the end of the day people don't care until they do and then they blame you.

Re: An internal OpenAI Astra model solved 10 major open math and CS problems

#48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I know it’s tough, but I am not a fan of elitism. Mathematics is no different from all other branches which themselves are just intellectual labor which is again just a special type of labor. There is nothing magical about it and if computers can trivialize it, so be it. Where were all the mathematicians and academics in general when “regular joe” was automated? Now it’s hitting close to home and their foreheads are…

I'd prefer the reverse approach. Let's value the "regular Joe" instead of cheapening everyone.

If everybody is "valued", nobody is.

The concept of value implies exclusivity by design.

Re: An internal OpenAI Astra model solved 10 major open math and CS problems

#49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Anti-AI rethoric is getting ridiculous.

Go back and re-read. Did I say anything bad about AI? What I'm talking about is the way OpenAI have handled this. They are in the business of artificial intelligence, striving to create human-level, or even super-human intelligence, and telling us what a wonderful future this will create. Shouldn't they be celebrating intelligence, especially human intelligence which is what they have bottled here?! LLMs are themselv…

They are tools that can help humans do things like disproving the Jacobian Conjecture that very gifted human mathematicians couldn't do until now (even with the help of computers).

Yes,their intelligence is jagged, excellent for some things and not so good for others, but calling them "minimally intelligent" is disingenuous.

Re: An internal OpenAI Astra model solved 10 major open math and CS problems

#50
post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I shouldn't be surprised how prevalent this viewpoint is, given the entrenched anti-intellectualism these days in the US and across the world, but it's disturbing to see it so widespread on HN of all places. You are of course free to wield this new technology any way you choose (to the extent its owners and your wallet allow you to, for now at least), and if you can enrich yourself by doing so power to you. I won't a…

Once you have experienced first hand the level of disdain the so called intellectuels have towards the regular joe it is hard to feel any sympathy for them. If I can be replaced with cheap foreign labour you too should just deal with it. You are not entitled to your well paying oil drilling job, you know, you should just move on and take another job or two and some nightly backbreaking gigs here and there if math doe…

I think you are generalizing tad bit too much. There is certainly some subset of intellectuals that is detached from normal people and are riding the high of their academic position. At the same time, in my experience, you will find a lot of compassionate and understanding academics, certainly way more of them than in business.

And there was quite a bit of work put in to make people less compassionate, for example by feeding them the dubious musings of Ayn Rand.

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