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Mathematics Without Mathematicians

borretti.me

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Re: Mathematics Without Mathematicians

#11

Post by pfdietz »

Twey wrote: post #6

> The result is that we will live in a demon-haunted world, full of marvelous devices whose operation we will not understand, based on engineering principles we will not understand, discovered using formalisms we will not understand. Well, that's just where we started — and then we developed science and mathematics to understand it. Why would it be any different if the demons live in our technological progeny instead…

This already describes the world for the vast majority of people. These changes are just the same thing coming to a thin intellectual elite who thought they were immune.

["First time?" meme]

Re: Mathematics Without Mathematicians

#12

Post by pfdietz »

js8 wrote: post #7
bananaflag wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I work in math and also believe in this stuff and have done so for years. You may call me sick if you wish so. My only cope among those was, using the author's words, "We will teach the mathematics AI discovers." This was back in 2018, before GPT-2. I abandoned it when I realized AIs will become better at explaining math before they become better at doing math. I still have some hope in the last one "mathematicians a…

> AIs will become better at explaining math before they become better at doing math I am not so sure. I am talking about math with AI and I feel as a math teacher, it is terrible. It introduces new notation and concepts faster than I can ask for definitions. It doesn't provide many examples. Sometimes it realizes it made a mistake in a guess and the confusion compounds. Maybe it's just my (in)experience - but I would…

It's another example of Moravec's Paradox. Explaining something to another person uses capabilities that go back millions of years. Mathematics goes back thousands of years. Evolution has made us very good at verbal communication, not so good at proving theorems. So it should have been expected that machines would have an easier time proving results than explaining them.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moravec%27s_paradox

Re: Mathematics Without Mathematicians

#13

Post by motbus3 »

The pure system of patents and copyright is broken.

Imagine being able to only throwing money and patenting everything, even if it existed before. The legal behinds this will be so mess that no one will be able to produce anything

Re: Mathematics Without Mathematicians

#15

Post by pfdietz »

motbus3 wrote: post #13

The pure system of patents and copyright is broken. Imagine being able to only throwing money and patenting everything, even if it existed before. The legal behinds this will be so mess that no one will be able to produce anything

I can imagine a world like that, but in what way does that describe what is actually happening?

Re: Mathematics Without Mathematicians

#16

Post by fn-mote »

Nevermark wrote: post #10
Twey wrote: post #6

> The result is that we will live in a demon-haunted world, full of marvelous devices whose operation we will not understand, based on engineering principles we will not understand, discovered using formalisms we will not understand. Well, that's just where we started — and then we developed science and mathematics to understand it. Why would it be any different if the demons live in our technological progeny instead…

Those "demons" didn't eat our lunch? (I know that can be interpreted as flippant, but it is intended as a serious answer. Because each impact like this, is not an end to some transition, but just one more point on an accelerating line.) My personal view - which gets a lot of flak here, is the advent of AI is on par with the Big Bang and the first replication-independent cells. Cognition is in the process of taking th…

I am failing to square this techno-utopia with the rising hate and authoritarianism worldwide.

It seems far more likely that AI will be working in the service of a government to oppress change and violate any human rights that are standing in the way.

Keep what’s happening today in your mind as you consider the future.

Re: Mathematics Without Mathematicians

#18

Post by DiscourseFan »

fn-mote wrote: post #16
Nevermark wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Those "demons" didn't eat our lunch? (I know that can be interpreted as flippant, but it is intended as a serious answer. Because each impact like this, is not an end to some transition, but just one more point on an accelerating line.) My personal view - which gets a lot of flak here, is the advent of AI is on par with the Big Bang and the first replication-independent cells. Cognition is in the process of taking th…

I am failing to square this techno-utopia with the rising hate and authoritarianism worldwide. It seems far more likely that AI will be working in the service of a government to oppress change and violate any human rights that are standing in the way. Keep what’s happening today in your mind as you consider the future.

Anyone who works in "red teaming" or has experience breaking AI systems will be able to easily disable these tools in the service of oppressive regimes, or even figure out how to "fight fire with fire."

Re: Mathematics Without Mathematicians

#19

Post by boringg »

pfdietz wrote: post #11
Twey wrote: post #6

> The result is that we will live in a demon-haunted world, full of marvelous devices whose operation we will not understand, based on engineering principles we will not understand, discovered using formalisms we will not understand. Well, that's just where we started — and then we developed science and mathematics to understand it. Why would it be any different if the demons live in our technological progeny instead…

This already describes the world for the vast majority of people. These changes are just the same thing coming to a thin intellectual elite who thought they were immune. ["First time?" meme]

Bringing elitism into it for what benefit? Its more like were giving away the ability to drive our own destiny.

Re: Mathematics Without Mathematicians

#20

Post by boringg »

RandomLensman wrote: post #8
Twey wrote: post #6

> The result is that we will live in a demon-haunted world, full of marvelous devices whose operation we will not understand, based on engineering principles we will not understand, discovered using formalisms we will not understand. Well, that's just where we started — and then we developed science and mathematics to understand it. Why would it be any different if the demons live in our technological progeny instead…

Arguably, a lot things are kind of incomprehensible on average today.

On average is much different then nobody understanding.
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