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Plug-in solar is coming. Plug-in batteries should follow

regen.co.uk

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Re: Plug-in solar is coming. Plug-in batteries should follow

#111
post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Completely agree with you, Govts sacred duty is to protect the super rich and utilities are the biggest monopolized cash cows (Eg: Warren Buffet). However,if people work with their local governments and change the building code to allow plug-in solar and plug-in batteries, that will continuously upgrade every home to become more and more energy independent and with the explosion of products, eventually be grid free.…

So… @lazide replied with a hahaha. It got flagged to death, understandably. If it were anybody but @lazide I’d have flagged it too, but… I can’t help but grimace and nod. To hazard a loosely-informed guess at their subtext… and politely ignoring your opening salvo of calorie-free populism… I’m not speaking from a place of certainty, but my impression is that there seem to be elements of “not even wrong” here. Some co…

> * code, especially in the huge fundamental aspects, tends to flow from the NEC downward, rather than from municipal experiments in playing with literal fire. Not insurmountable, I guess, but it seems like a pretty big chicken-and-egg kind of obstacle to your proposed course of action;

UL 3700 exists. Local efforts are underway to let anyone use plug-in sola without contractors, permits, utility approval: https://pluginsolarusa.com/

> individual household demand is several orders of magnitude removed from the considerations informing grid design and operations;

The grid connects millions of individual homes. I'm not sure what you are trying to say here?

> the last thing a grid needs is a meaningful amount of random feed-in that it can’t centrally (and near-instantly) manage;

Plug-in solar or batteries do not feed in to the grid. They are for consumption within the home.

> the costs of home-scale labor/permits/whatever are only the biggest ones from the perspective of toting up individual homeowners considering uneconomical projects, not from utility-scale (much less whole-polity-scale) scratchwork… would an army of volunteer homeowners’ labor really still outperform specialist labor installing hundreds-of-homes’ worth of capacity per day at an energy facility somewhere?

There is no work involved other than just plugging it in. There is no volunteer home owners labor. Even if there is, it is their own home. When you turn the lights on, do you add that to your spreadsheet of volunteer home owners labor? Or do you consider plugging a cable into an outlet a big task that should require contractors, project managers, managers, directors, forecasts, estimates, daily standups? If thats your view, thats understandable, most enterprises work that way.

> the thing holding back the “explosion of products,” consumerist-salvation overtones aside, seems more likely to be {physics vs the existing built environment} than permits—that, plus the lack of a mass market;

plug-in battery uses existing built environment. Thats the whole point.

> one barrier to “plug and play” is that said plugs are safe only because of an interlocking set of assumptions upstream of said plugs—which definitely do not contemplate feeding back in whole-home current from a random convenience outlet on your front porch;

I don't know what you are trying to say here. It sounds like corporate speak: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9QmAbQMukB4

> Rate tiers are an economic device to influence consumption patterns under the status quo. As the Californians are learning, there’s a hard floor on the price of “having a grid” vs “not having a grid”; as consumption patterns shift, rate schemes can and must shift too;

Rate tiers are a politically convenient way to hide cost-recovery problems, cross-subsidize favored groups, and extract revenue while pretending the underlying cost structure of the grid is volume-driven when large parts of it are not. California homeowners are buying record numbers of home batteries to pair with solar panels. If the rates are entirely unreasonable, homeowners will go offgrid. California homeowners are smart enough to figure out how to freeze property taxes close to zero, I'm sure they will figure out the right laws when electricity rates become unreasonable.

> building codes care about safety, grids and ISOs and energy providers care about capacity and stability. Players on grids can realize enormous economies of scale with respect to pretty much any generation or storage technology. The bottleneck you describe is…

Yeah, just leave it to the utilities and regulators, they have nothing but consumers best interest at heart.

> I dunno, man… the only bottleneck to energy too cheap to meter is fusion, obviously all we have to do is just go crack fusion and we’ll have a fusion pot on every stove!

plug-in batteries are impossible and require home owners volunteer labor, but fusion, it can manifest from thin air!

Re: Plug-in solar is coming. Plug-in batteries should follow

#112
post #4

Why bother? Power companies will complain they are losing money and regulators will allow them to buy energy from residential solar panels basically for free (NEM 3.0). This is California. California has spent decades convincing people to convert to solar panels and EVs and now that many have switched, they doubled electricity prices and told us not to charge when it’s too hot. Now they want solar panel owners to pay…

Similarly here in Australia. Electricity prices keep increasing, daily supply charge keeps increasing (this ones supposed to pay for the transmission network), while the solar feed-in tariff keeps decreasing. With the added stupidity that, obviously the sun works during the day and so do you. Now tax payers are forced to subsidies residential batteries as well as rooftop solar, which results in a wealth transfer from…

Didn't Australia just introduce free daytime electricity?

Re: Plug-in solar is coming. Plug-in batteries should follow

#113
I think the move to allow plug in solar is good, but its just a sticking plaster over the issue. And that is rental houses not having solar, or much of anything.

In the 60s many houses only got indoor toilets because the government forced the issue. Maybe we should be doing the same for insulation, energy efficiency and solar panels.

This goes double for social housing. Poor people can't borrow money as cheaply as the government, so we're left giving money to people to pay their electricity bill. Why not put solar power on their rooves instead. This can be counterbalanced if needed by taking money from the benefits, so it pays for itself.

Re: Plug-in solar is coming. Plug-in batteries should follow

#114
post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

EV, Battery, Solar, Heat pump, Amber. Maybe be give it a tech abbreviation like HBASE? :) Ok this may squarely be in the upper middle class and up for now but prices will come down and change everything. Almost to the point of off grid being feasible for suburban and rural areas at least. Then build solar and wind farms and batteries and hydrogen production/consumption for base load. Edit: changed to inc. solar

Why? Why should Australians continue to tolerate a government that gives half our gas exports away, and exports at least as much coal as it uses. But not build any modern tech coal and gas for cheap reliable base load and load following power? And nuclear too, we export all the uranium we mine, and at least some of that to nuclear armed states. Yet prohibit both on our own soil. Why must we continue to be told we sho…

Today, building new solar, wind, and batteries is cheaper than building new coal or gas plants, let alone the fuel costs. Building new coal and gas would actually be stupid. Running older plants without caring about pollution might be cheaper in the short term, but not by much.

And what do you mean by "new technology"? We've had solar power for over 50 years and wind power for centuries. Australia was a pioneer in grid-scale batteries over a decade ago with Tesla.

Even if you wanted to build gas and coal plants, where would you get the turbines? There's a massive shortage, with deliveries supposedly 5 to 7 years away that is even before the current AI based demand surge. Nuclear will also take decades to build. The only fast, cheap option left is solar, wind, and batteries. Which can be up and running in under 12 months.

Re: Plug-in solar is coming. Plug-in batteries should follow

#115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Similarly here in Australia. Electricity prices keep increasing, daily supply charge keeps increasing (this ones supposed to pay for the transmission network), while the solar feed-in tariff keeps decreasing. With the added stupidity that, obviously the sun works during the day and so do you. Now tax payers are forced to subsidies residential batteries as well as rooftop solar, which results in a wealth transfer from…

Didn't Australia just introduce free daytime electricity?

[flagged]

Re: Plug-in solar is coming. Plug-in batteries should follow

#116
post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Yet in most locales it's illegal to disconnect from the grid. That's kind of ... required? Otherwise you have a bunch of people who are off the grid until the sun doesn't shine for a week and they run their batteries down and then they all try to connect simultaneously and collapse your grid. Most places I know of don't care if you never connect to the grid--you get your exemption and get on with life. However, onc…

Are you being deliberately obtuse? It is illegal to discontinue your relationship with your local electrical utility. As in, completely disconnect from the grid, cut the wires and never look back. As the previous poster said, charging for the “privilege” of connecting to the enormously-valuable grid would be a little bit defensible if having a connection were not legally required in most places.

The problem is that there are two different costs associated with running an electrical grid. The first one is a variable usage cost tied to generation and is what everybody thinks about. The problem is that there is also a second constant capital cost to simply maintain your connection to the grid.

In the past, the variable usage generation cost was much greater than the capital cost of maintenance. Solar generation (and decades of energy efficiency programs) breaks that.

The solution is to split electrical bills explicitly into the two parts (variable and constant). The problem with that is that a bunch of people installed solar with the expectation of an amortization schedule of much, much lower electricity bills since most of the cost was bundled into the usage cost which solar would reduce. If you change that billing, the amortization of that solar system goes right out the window.

The secondary problem is that this is politically dangerous because the people you are upsetting are homeowners who have some money and vote fairly reliably.

Furthermore, it is not illegal to COMPLETELY disconnect from the grid. As long as you follow the building codes, you can have the utility come out and completely disconnect the wires and you're good to go. You will likely have to demonstrate some local electrical system within the bounds of your local building codes. However, it is not uncommon for houses in the less populated areas of California to not be connected to the grid at all.

What is NOT legal is leaving those wires connected to the grid and toggling your connection on and off. If you are on or even possibly on the grid, you are expected to cooperate, and you have to help pay for the grid.

Re: Plug-in solar is coming. Plug-in batteries should follow

#117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No it hasn’t. What it has done is resulted in ridiculously high electricity prices, such that manufacturing anything in this country has become progressively less viable. The Net Zero story sold to Australians is, and always was always will be, complete bs, as evidenced by three facts: 1) It’s no longer the narrative, because “data centres” and 2) even when it was the narrative, it was always bs because Australia exp…

On the other hand you could just not export the coal and leave it in the ground? Unfortunately that will piss off others who want the income. But then those same people won't plan for a time when there's no buyers for coal, so.....

And all the people who rely on that energy?

What about them?

Some of that coal is coking coal, used to make steel.

What of it?

Re: Plug-in solar is coming. Plug-in batteries should follow

#118

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can have multiple loads and sources that are in-spec but the wiring between them is overloaded.

Sure, but now we're talking about some freak situation where you have multiple sources with a combined allowed load of more than 32amps with 3 or more connected devices drawing at their max rating or above, but only when on battery power when you have no grid connection. Like, it could happen but we're entering the "fun to think about" territory.

If you have no grid connection then everything will go offline, unless you do something illegal.

The situation can occur if loads and sources are on the same circuit, e.g.:

Grid

   |
Meter

   |

  CB
   |

   |--battery1
   |--battery2
   |
   |
   | 
This is not daisy chained (HN markup hates diagrams) but hanging off wall circuits and power boards. With a situation like this (in 240v) the batteries will sink 2x10A and the PV will supply 16A through point P1. The CB will not trip, nor will appliance fuses.

Since you can just buy 800W modules from Aldi for €300 people will definitely do this by accident. However, it will likely go away because Aldi et Al are also selling their Balkonkraftwerk with batteries included (2000Wh at 1700W) for €1000.

If the comms-over-powerline standards were working then devices could talk to their CB and reserve/advertise capacity. But sadly the power companies have just been fighting to ban home automation and smart grid technology.

Re: Plug-in solar is coming. Plug-in batteries should follow

#120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

Very convincing argument. Thank you for your contribution.

You didn’t have anything worth arguing against. When you do, feel free to let me know.
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