How does this compare to EUV?
China begins producing advanced chipmaking deep-ultraviolet lithography machines
11–20 of 126 posts
Re: China begins producing advanced chipmaking deep-ultraviolet lithography machines
#12China is still far behind modern lithography. It took ASML almost 2 decades to get from immersion DUV (and EUV prototypes) to commercial EUV machines.
But isn't it easier to copy some existing approach than to create it from a green field? ASML tech is presumably highly protected, but China is also very good in spying, hacking etc.
Yes. But it's not as simple as just having access to ASML's ip. They have exclusive rights to all the components and inputs, which are also protected and are also hard to make.
It's a whole system that China needs to duplicate.
Re: China begins producing advanced chipmaking deep-ultraviolet lithography machines
#13ASML dropped; it used to be the undisputed leader of immersion DUV Interesting in so many ways that theinfo kept the company anon but Reuters exposed it (allegedly) Aside: what we know for sure is that Chinese are catching up to Japanese in putting dad-style puns in their brands https://www.hoshinocoffee.com/
do you mean like Xīn Kǎilái 新凯来 "new triumph" could also sound like 芯凯来 "chip triumph" ?
Re: China begins producing advanced chipmaking deep-ultraviolet lithography machines
#14China is still far behind modern lithography. It took ASML almost 2 decades to get from immersion DUV (and EUV prototypes) to commercial EUV machines.
This, these news organizations have no f'n clue. China this, China that, it's all part of the 10 billion China spends on b.s to feed the Americans that they are behind or they are useless and that they don't stand a chance.... China is on the verge of collapse walking the razors edge.
I mean, it's possible that an economy, especially of a major nation, can be on the verge of collapse and that it can be pushing technical frontiers. It's even possible that pushing those frontiers can forestall or reverse the economic collapse.
There are certainly a lot of people who think the above applies to the US.
Re: China begins producing advanced chipmaking deep-ultraviolet lithography machines
#15After living and working in China 10yrs and fundamentally experiencing the growth rate and culture, it's been a bit horrifying to watch the Western world consistently decide withholding tech from China and giving them no other option but develop their own tech, is a good idea. They are the ultimate long-term planners and I have no doubt the existing gaps will be relatively short lived before China closes them.
Re: China begins producing advanced chipmaking deep-ultraviolet lithography machines
#16After living and working in China 10yrs and fundamentally experiencing the growth rate and culture, it's been a bit horrifying to watch the Western world consistently decide withholding tech from China and giving them no other option but develop their own tech, is a good idea. They are the ultimate long-term planners and I have no doubt the existing gaps will be relatively short lived before China closes them.
I don't see how the alternatives ends any differently? We manufacture in China, they copy the products with lower margins then western companies can't compete on price.
Re: China begins producing advanced chipmaking deep-ultraviolet lithography machines
#17Unpopular opinion:
if you do not want to pay $500 a month for Claude Max, maybe let China keep pushing engineering optimization. The U.S. and China should compete.
Re: China begins producing advanced chipmaking deep-ultraviolet lithography machines
#18All of this can be traced back to the 2018 blacklisting of ZTE, and the continued willful ignorance of China's capabilities, and of the history of industrialization and technological progress.
Re: China begins producing advanced chipmaking deep-ultraviolet lithography machines
#19After living and working in China 10yrs and fundamentally experiencing the growth rate and culture, it's been a bit horrifying to watch the Western world consistently decide withholding tech from China and giving them no other option but develop their own tech, is a good idea. They are the ultimate long-term planners and I have no doubt the existing gaps will be relatively short lived before China closes them.
I worked in China for 9 years and I really don’t think it makes much of a difference. China is not dumb enough to think that just because they can get it from the west today they can get it from them tomorrow. They were always going to develop their own semiconductor and jet turbine tech and industries, among other. They didn’t do it just to spite the west for not selling them the chips they wanted.
Re: China begins producing advanced chipmaking deep-ultraviolet lithography machines
#20After living and working in China 10yrs and fundamentally experiencing the growth rate and culture, it's been a bit horrifying to watch the Western world consistently decide withholding tech from China and giving them no other option but develop their own tech, is a good idea. They are the ultimate long-term planners and I have no doubt the existing gaps will be relatively short lived before China closes them.
I don't see how the alternatives ends any differently? We manufacture in China, they copy the products with lower margins then western companies can't compete on price.
The steelman of the argument is that, due to legacy in technology and comparative advantage, unless they expect a serious supply chain tech, many core technologies will be too expensive to duplicate for China and so there will be areas where they will not advance. There is some amount of evidence that was true for lithography, they did not seem to be making much progress until they were forced to, and there didn't seem to be enough capital available in China to catch up.
Of course, the extent to which they was true and for how long it would be true is up for debate, but it's not a prima facie foregone conclusion