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Study uncovers lost 'golden age' of languages

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Re: Study uncovers lost 'golden age' of languages

#51
I think that we are entering a new golden age of language, personally.

It has never been easier for a human being to take a corpus and refactor it in a fashion that they can understand it without making an energetic investment in constructing a new ontology; or that is to say, humans can use AI now to grasp text and words - language, specifically - in extraordinarily industrious, productive ways.

I know it is a crackpot event horizon, but I truly wonder if Szukalskis’ Protong isn’t just waiting there, tip of the iceberg, to be discovered. Seriously.

Re: Study uncovers lost 'golden age' of languages

#52
post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Less ambiguously: between 1000 and 3000 years ago. ;)

So definitely not either 1000 years ago or 3000 years ago, but in the range 975BC to 1025AD? Cuz if it's got to be between 1/3000, it can't be 1000 or 3000, right? Between can of course mean (1000,3000) or [1000,3000], right? Just poking fun at the attempt to remove ambiguity including ambiguity.

Why are you assuming that the boundaries are whole calendrical years? Clearly, I meant exactly between the precise moment 1000 years ago and the precise moment 3000 years ago. ;)

Re: Study uncovers lost 'golden age' of languages

#53
post #8
post #4

An interesting tangent to the language discussion is the Epic of Gilgamesh => https://www.astralcodexten.com/p/your-book-review-the-epic-o...

You know how people learn Ancient Greek to study Homer in the original language? Gilgamesh deserves that. I'm only a beginner but the refinement of the poetry is already obvious even as someone who doesn't know the language. Euphony was very important to the Mesopotamian poets. They liked rhythms and alliteration and assonance. And the late editions of Gilgamesh reflect about two thousand years of iterative improveme…

The Astralcodex link has a YouTube URL to a woman purportedly reading the Epic in the original tongue.

Re: Study uncovers lost 'golden age' of languages

#54
post #10
post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You know how people learn Ancient Greek to study Homer in the original language? Gilgamesh deserves that. I'm only a beginner but the refinement of the poetry is already obvious even as someone who doesn't know the language. Euphony was very important to the Mesopotamian poets. They liked rhythms and alliteration and assonance. And the late editions of Gilgamesh reflect about two thousand years of iterative improveme…

> Gilgamesh deserves that The very moral in Gilgamesh deserves that. "I went in a quest for immortality; I did not achieve it and came back, and while returning I saw in the distance the City I built, and I understood what my immortality was...". (A "must" of an insight for engineers, architects, builders...)

You're possibly misreading that.

In the Bible the city builder was Cain, and he built it because he was a criminal and needed protection from the world when he lost God's grace.

I.e., the message is that a city is a kind of protective exoskeleton or "safe space" when man becomes estranged from God (the Universe).

It's a story about man's fragility and ultimate futility.

Re: Study uncovers lost 'golden age' of languages

#55
post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Gilgamesh deserves that The very moral in Gilgamesh deserves that. "I went in a quest for immortality; I did not achieve it and came back, and while returning I saw in the distance the City I built, and I understood what my immortality was...". (A "must" of an insight for engineers, architects, builders...)

You're possibly misreading that. In the Bible the city builder was Cain, and he built it because he was a criminal and needed protection from the world when he lost God's grace. I.e., the message is that a city is a kind of protective exoskeleton or "safe space" when man becomes estranged from God (the Universe). It's a story about man's fragility and ultimate futility.

That is a very idiosyncratic interpretation of the tables of patriarchs in Genesis.

A more orthodox interpretation is that Cain's line is the urban, civilization-creating line, you have metallurgy, music, cities, trade, all coming from that line. This is because Cain represented agriculture, whereas Abel represented cattle herding, thus nomadic, not rooted lifestyles.

After Cain killed Abel (e.g. sedentary agriculture replaced nomadism in most places), it was natural for Cain to build a city as he was not nomadic. It was not for "protection" from his fellow man, but merely the continuation of his choice to be a tiller of the soil rather than a wandering nomad. God's demand for Cain to be a "wanderer" in the land of "nod" ("literally 'land of wandering' in Hebrew") is thus the opposite of what Cain did -- he settled down and built a city. This creates a nice picture: Cain choose not to be a wanderer (nomadic cattle herder) but to be a farmer (settle in one place). God told him "You will be a wanderer" but then it says that Cain built a city. So is the message -- those who are rooted in one place on earth are spiritual wanderers, and those who wander are the rooted ones?

Of course everyone is free to read Genesis and get all sorts of meanings out of it, it is ultimately a personal exercise according to your own conscience, but when you say that your reading is the correct one and other people are "mistaken", then you better be able to back it up with some kind of consensus view.

FYI, more modern scholarship has noticed that the seven generations of Cain line up with the 7 "sages" in Sumerian accounts, these were the sages that came from the deep and taught the Sumerians agriculture, metallurgy, etc, and people have been exploring associations between the names of these sages and the names in the line of Cain.

Another interesting area of the study is that the lines of Shem are basically the same names as that of Cain, but Shem has three more figures. That certainly isn't an accident - the documentary hypothesis people say it is the same line, just copied over from different places, but that is an old view and I think a minority one. There are all sorts of discussions about that similarity.

Re: Study uncovers lost 'golden age' of languages

#56
post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Or learn Hittite. It's got the oldest corpus in the Indo-European language family. You've got your standard assortment of Indo-European cases. Grammatical gender is animate/inanimate and the animate gender has yet to split into masculine and feminine. The script is tons of fun, especially if you write it with a stylus on clay. And as a bonus, you get to learn a smattering of Sumerian and Akkadian vocabulary.

Animate gender didn’t split into masculine and feminine — inanimate collective plural was repurposed as feminine.

Can you point us somewhere zo learn more about that?

Re: Study uncovers lost 'golden age' of languages

#57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

yeah, I wasted several years of valuable education time on a dead language instead of a foreign living one and it is NOT worth it unless you're a very specific kind of person. it is not going to help you understand English. I learned Latin. It's not helpful for anything. It's totally useless, and it's closer to English than Sanskrit. It was a total waste of time

Learning latin in school as a kid/teenager vastly improved my ability to learn english. Also helped alot with latinisms and academic lingo, which feels just natural, having internalised its semantic roots. So imho your statement it's not a universal truth. Still wouldn't learn a dead language as a grown up though.

Re: Study uncovers lost 'golden age' of languages

#58
post #31
post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> which was clearly not my intention. You did not express that clearly enough then.

My bad :) It's just that I cannot allocate the safest amount of effort in composing. I thought it was clear enough.

It is basically confusing an uncle with a grandfather, or an aunt with a grandmother.

These languages are indeed relatives, literally part of the same family, but we usually distinguish whether they are lineal ancestors or not. If you said "Julia is your grandmother" when Julia was actually the person's aunt, that person might get very confused about your claim!

People's aunts do often have a cultural effect on them, but we can still be more specific and distinguish them from their grandmothers.

Re: Study uncovers lost 'golden age' of languages

#59

The golden age of languages is when there is only one language left, and everyone can understand everyone without cunning translators and hallucinating llms.

Unfortunately, even if we had a single language, I doubt we’d be free of misunderstandings. Jargon, double entendres, shibboleths and other barriers to understanding all still exist even when everyone is nominally speaking the same language

A big practical difficulty is the pressure for languages to continue to evolve in different directions when speaker communities are even slightly separated (hence the difference in present-day varieties of English, which is probably growing larger over time rather than smaller, based on (almost, approximately) a single common ancestor just a couple of centuries ago in the time of the British Empire and colonial expansion).

People can decide to try to prevent dialects from forming and diverging

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Language_planning

but they have to actively work against it if they want to prevent it, and a lot of the common means of doing so historically have been pretty harsh (e.g. corporal punishment in schools for using disfavored varieties). I guess this is partly because the consensus that we should centralize and unify and standardize language, for all of its logistical and economic and cultural benefits, is mostly a central government/imperial metropole impulse rather than something that the general public is super-attracted to.

Standardizing language and letting it diverge both have cultural benefits! Just different ones. The standardization benefit is that more people can access a much larger body of culture without linguistic barriers and without needing translation or explanations, and cultural conversations can grow larger, with more direct participants in a given conversation or genre. The diversity benefit is that the language differences themselves can acquire, or mediate, cultural phenomena and cultural creativity.

English doesn't have a significant tradition of language planning the way that some of the continental European languages do, and this is posing a (minor) challenge to English's role as a global language, as there are sometimes genuine difficulties of intelligibility between English varieties, and again I think those differences are getting wider on average rather than narrower. Then again, if we did have such a tradition, it doesn't mean everyone would care to follow it... it's not as though everyone in Latin America cares about what the RAE says (or that they refrain from having meaningfully different vocabulary and grammar between Latin American regions!), or even that everyone in Austria or Switzerland necessary cares what Duden says.

Re: Study uncovers lost 'golden age' of languages

#60
post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You know how people learn Ancient Greek to study Homer in the original language? Gilgamesh deserves that. I'm only a beginner but the refinement of the poetry is already obvious even as someone who doesn't know the language. Euphony was very important to the Mesopotamian poets. They liked rhythms and alliteration and assonance. And the late editions of Gilgamesh reflect about two thousand years of iterative improveme…

>The ş is like sh, š is regular s That's not correct, in transcriptions of Akkadian š is pronounced sh (Heb. shin), ṣ (not ş) is pronounced ts (Heb. tsade), and there's also s, pronounced as regular s.

Is it possible that the Hebrew consonants' pronunciations don't align fully with their cognate consonants' pronunciations in Akkadian? This is certainly true among other Semitic languages, that there are drifts over time in the values of consonants.
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