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A week in Matrix

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Re: A week in Matrix

#51

Post by bronson »

maelito wrote: post #35
bronson wrote: post #3

I feel this. And it doesn't even cover the very first conversation I have with my users. "You want to install Element" "But I want Matrix." "They call it Element now." "I want to speak on Element?" "No you want to speak on Matrix using Element." "Uh." "Don't worry about it. Look, just install Element." "Well, I see Element and Element X." "Oh right. Well, do you want to video chat?" "What?" "Element X doesn't video c…

Explaining to non-tech people that Matrix was email and Element was Gmail was easy to understand.

Email is also very confusing.

What is the Matrix equivalent to Gmail? Something that works reliably without having to understand all the background and acronyms?

Re: A week in Matrix

#52

Post by neiljohnson »

solarkraft wrote: post #22

Seeing such issues with Matrix and other open, common-good projects, I get the feeling like they just aren’t architected for good everyday-user UX. Matrix is making real efforts to change this with Matrix 2.0, but still seems to suffer from design debt in many places. I think this is partially due to the people they attract who largely work on the projects for free: Tinkerers who care about some form of technical ele…

Disclaimer: I work on the project.

Matrix started out with its early DNA in focusing on the problem of how to create a decentralised e2ee multi-client messenger.

Getting that right took a lot of time and effort, which initially came at the expense of UX.

Elsewhere in the comments, it is clear that there are not many (any?) similar projects out there that solve the same problem, especially to the level of maturity where it is trusted by governments and civil institutions around the world.

So the effort was worth it, and we have the proof points to show that Matrix solves a real problem. Now we need to continue to work hard to create a UX that matches (perhaps exceeds?) the quality of the proprietary, centralised and non e2ee messaging apps that set the UX standards users have come to expect.

This needs to happen both at the protocol level and in the client and server implementations. For me personally, this means Synapse and the Element clients, but we have many quality implementations in the wild.

Matrix 2.0, mentioned above, is part of this initiative, though there is a lot of additional work in progress to both improve existing features (like Spaces and Threads) and add expected features, such as user status.

The post calls out running on Dendrite, which, as a project not under active development, contributes to some of the problems. However, I would not want that to be an excuse, because there is legitimate feedback in the post overall.

If someone reading this is new to the project and wants to host their own server, I'd recommend checking out [ESS Community](https://github.com/element-hq/ess-helm) - though other distributions exist.

Thanks everyone for flying Matrix and sharing your experiences (good and bad), we're getting there.

Re: A week in Matrix

#53

Post by jeroenhd »

JuniperMesos wrote: post #25
louiskottmann wrote: post #19

Remark half-way in the rant they are using dendrite, an experimental matrix server implementation that has been abandonned. Thus ranting about it is cheeky at best. I have been using synapse for years with little issue.

> Dendrite is kind of deprecated as a homeserver these days, at least it doesn't seem to be the main focus of development and most recent commits are mere dependency bumps. Years ago, when the server was set up, choosing Dendrite seemed like a good decision, because it was easier to deploy and maintain than Synapse and there was a promise for a bright future for the first 2nd generation homeserver implementation. Unf…

There is no technical reason why migrating between homeserver software doesn't work, there just is no tooling for it. Someone could build a Dendrite-to-Matrix exporter+importer. The protocol itself doesn't really care about what server software you're using.

I don't know any good messenger that doesn't tie their accounts to something portable. Plus, I think the ability to reset your password/passkey/whatever if you forgot it is way more important than having users manage their own identity roots for any serious messenger. The alternative is very cool, technology wise, but not really something I would care to use and maintain.

For users migrating accounts, there was a tool (not sure why it died) on the Matrix website that would log in to both accounts, go through each room and where possible invite the new account, and leave with the old account. As long as you have invite/join permissions, that's all you need to do for most chat rooms. 1-on-1 chats need some extra commands to set the metadata right so clients recognise them for what they are, but even they can be ported over, mostly. It's not a perfect solution, but it's lots better than nuking your entire account and starting over from scratch.

Re: A week in Matrix

#54

Post by raphaelrobert »

fedpost wrote: post #5

Are there any real options in this space for something that is - E2EE - Large group capable (100+ users) - FOSS + self hostable - Not riddled with security issues - Relatively easy to use for iOS and Android users (safe for normies) I help run a Matrix server for people who are at risk from the current administration and I can attest to all of the issues mentioned plus a few more. I'd rather not move to something as…

We (https://phnx.im/about) are building something new (https://air.ms). The website doesn’t yet mention self-hosting and federation, but we’d like to get there as well. Beyond that, our focus is on combining good UX with state-of-the-art security. It might not float everybody’s boat, but it should satisfy the list above.

We are in an early phase right now, where we test the product with a limited number of people, hence the invitation-only approach. We intend to drop that towards the end of the year if all goes well.

We helped co-author MLS, and we also contribute to the MIMI IETF working group. We’d like Air to be as standards-based as possible.

We are also curious to learn about specific problems that folks think have not been solved yet in the space.

Re: A week in Matrix

#55

Post by solarkraft »

neiljohnson wrote: post #52
solarkraft wrote: post #22

Seeing such issues with Matrix and other open, common-good projects, I get the feeling like they just aren’t architected for good everyday-user UX. Matrix is making real efforts to change this with Matrix 2.0, but still seems to suffer from design debt in many places. I think this is partially due to the people they attract who largely work on the projects for free: Tinkerers who care about some form of technical ele…

Disclaimer: I work on the project. Matrix started out with its early DNA in focusing on the problem of how to create a decentralised e2ee multi-client messenger. Getting that right took a lot of time and effort, which initially came at the expense of UX. Elsewhere in the comments, it is clear that there are not many (any?) similar projects out there that solve the same problem, especially to the level of maturity whe…

Thank you for your work on Matrix. I believe that the world needs an interoperable messaging standard just like we have E-Mail, which is why I am so interested in Matrix becoming something I can tell people to use with a good conscience.

I am happy that Matrix has found a place in government organizations. For many individual users, Matrix currently solves no problem because they simply can not use it. I hope this will continue to change, I am cheering for you.

Re: A week in Matrix

#56

Post by jeroenhd »

bronson wrote: post #3

I feel this. And it doesn't even cover the very first conversation I have with my users. "You want to install Element" "But I want Matrix." "They call it Element now." "I want to speak on Element?" "No you want to speak on Matrix using Element." "Uh." "Don't worry about it. Look, just install Element." "Well, I see Element and Element X." "Oh right. Well, do you want to video chat?" "What?" "Element X doesn't video c…

Element X does video calls fine. It's been ages since it was the messy beta you describe it as. In fact, it does calls better these days. There's no good reason to go with Element Classic anymore, I don't understand why they don't just drop the old thing.

All the other things are just as true if you replace "Matrix" and "Element" with "email" and "outlook"/"gmail".

If you don't think the person you're talking to understands the difference between apps and emails ("I can email outlook people from my gmail?" is a serious question these days), just don't mention it. They're not going to get into the weeds anyway.

When I tried to explain the different "servers" in Discord to some a-technical people I had the same problem and disabling invites + not bothering with explaining the server concept seems to work out a lot better. I've given up trying to explain computer things to people who don't want to understand how the things they rely on work.

Re: A week in Matrix

#57

Post by jeroenhd »

pitchlatte wrote: post #47
stsch wrote: post #32

I can relate. I run Synapse for only 2 users, and every update is like a lottery. "Unable to decrypt" most often. Logout 2-3 times, clear cache, then suddenly it works again. IRC was so easy. :(

as someone who wasn’t online in the IRC heydays i really wonder why we can’t just build on it, instead of inventing new protocols

People still use IRC. You can't run your own server and talk to people on other servers without a load of work, you cannot do any kind of encryption, file transfers (images?) are a privacy nightmare if they work at all, web clients need a proxy. Authentication doesn't really exist. Messages disappear if you disconnect and reconnect unless you set up an additional server that will make it seem like you're always connected.

The protocol was written for a different age. If you're going with old-and-proven tech, XMPP is a much better jumping-off point than IRC. Everything that made it simple and easy to use back in the day, makes it hard to use in a modern setting.

Re: A week in Matrix

#58

Post by jeroenhd »

lytedev wrote: post #2

The pain in admin'ing a server is real - even for my tiny one! I haven't bumped into these specifically with tuwunel, mostly SSO issues that have been resolved. But man being able to have all my chats bridged to one thing where I can comfortably sit in a client I control and can freely modify? The feature set and integrations available are really tough to beat.

I find the bridge setup rather suboptimal, but with a complete lack of a good Pidgin alternative for the modern age, it's the best system around, whether you do it with Matrix or with XMPP.

Re: A week in Matrix

#59

Post by RaitoBezarius »

louiskottmann wrote: post #48
progval wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is addressed two paragraphs later: > Years ago, when the server was set up, choosing Dendrite seemed like a good decision > Unfortunately, migrating between Matrix homeserver implementations remains a problem with no satisfying solution, so we're kind of stuck on slowly rotting foundations.

Acknowledged yes, adressed no. Using dendrite at the time was a bet on the future : "use it now and you won't have to migrate". You can also migrate by replicating messages, or mirroring new messages via a bridge. In my opinion they tried nothing and they're all out of options.

I'm part of the sysadmin team who studied the migration paths for the Dendrite in question in this blog post and unfortunately as a volunteer it's hard to find the time to invent migration paths (even if we have the knowledge) and make it happen while there's also many other needs unaddressed elsewhere.

Given that you seem expert in the matter, would you like to help and own the migration? That'd be awesome!

Re: A week in Matrix

#60

Post by tcfhgj »

raphaelrobert wrote: post #54
fedpost wrote: post #5

Are there any real options in this space for something that is - E2EE - Large group capable (100+ users) - FOSS + self hostable - Not riddled with security issues - Relatively easy to use for iOS and Android users (safe for normies) I help run a Matrix server for people who are at risk from the current administration and I can attest to all of the issues mentioned plus a few more. I'd rather not move to something as…

We ( https://phnx.im/about ) are building something new ( https://air.ms ). The website doesn’t yet mention self-hosting and federation, but we’d like to get there as well. Beyond that, our focus is on combining good UX with state-of-the-art security. It might not float everybody’s boat, but it should satisfy the list above. We are in an early phase right now, where we test the product with a limited number of people…

how will federation compare to Matrix?
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