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The Absurdity of Albert Camus

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Re: The Absurdity of Albert Camus

#61

Post by nchmy »

georgemcbay wrote: post #56
rectang wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s been a while, but I recall finding The Plague more compelling than The Stranger . While I agree with Camus’s philosophical points about the absurdity of existence and the indifference of the universe, within the scope of our tiny little lives there is morality and meaning. Taking action to address the suffering caused by an epidemic is meaningful. So are the deaths of an Arab or one’s mother, and the premise tha…

> It’s been a while, but I recall finding The Plague more compelling than The Stranger. > While I agree with Camus’s philosophical points about the absurdity of existence and the indifference of the universe, within the scope of our tiny little lives there is morality and meaning. I'm pretty sure later-life (relatively, since he died pretty young) Camus would agree with you. The way I view it, The Stranger was him di…

Yes, this is the mistake almost everyone makes - stopping at "life is absurd!". The rebel and the plague show how to do something meaningful in spite of that.

I've always pointed the Absurdists to his nobel prize speech as a quick way of showing them that they don't have the slightest idea of what he was talking about. The cognitive dissonance is generally too great, and the leave in a huff.

https://www.nobelprize.org/prizes/literature/1957/camus/spee...

Re: The Absurdity of Albert Camus

#62

Post by A_D_E_P_T »

halperter wrote: post #44
A_D_E_P_T wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem as I see it is in the fact that the book describes the world very naturalistically. The first half of the book is basically Proust, if Proust were less introspective and didn't care to inflate his word count. It's actually rare to find a book where the events of day-to-day life -- running to catch a tram, or spending a lazy Sunday afternoon on one's balcony -- are relayed with such clarity and directness.…

Your analogy of divine justice struck me as rather fitting! Before the trial, the magistrate brandishes the cross to Meursault and demands that Meursault believe that he will be forgiven, lest the magistrate's life lack meaning. Meursault, although "forced" into saying that such a god exists, denies that such a god, a divine judgment, could give life meaning. His position reflects Camus' as Camus believes that hope o…

> Meursault already denies any sense of hope (reflecting his position as the absurd hero), rather, embracing the absurd. It is a bit weird if there would be a focus on the end result, which I don't really think matters, to the reader nor Meursault.

This is emphatically not the case, though! Not only does he not deny any sense of hope, he dwells on his hope. He practically lives on it.

I'll quote from the book:

"There were two other things about which I was always thinking: the dawn and my appeal. . .

"Then all day there was my appeal to think about. I made the most of this idea, studying my effects so as to squeeze out the maximum of consolation. . .

"I gave myself leave, to consider the other alternative; that my appeal was successful. And then the trouble was to calm down that sudden rush of joy racing through my body and even bringing tears to my eyes."

The prison scenes mostly concern how he alternates between clinging to hope and distracting his mind. He merely claims to lose hope in the book's very last paragraph, and imagines a spectacular public execution. (Something else that's quite weird in itself, as the French banned public executions in 1939 and the book takes place in the 1940s.)

> I think the first part was an exploration of the absurd hero's life, and the second part was more of the reaction to the absurd hero by society.

This is by no means clear, as I don't think that Mersault is a well-defined "absurd hero" (VERY subtle differences in framing, and more introspective narration, would have you believe that he's the perfect bourgeois citizen!) nor is the "reaction by society" at all credible.

Re: The Absurdity of Albert Camus

#63

Post by vixen99 »

ButlerianJihad wrote: post #25

I heard of Camus around 1985 when I started listening to the Cure. For several years, I collected Cure records, saw the Cure live, and the Cure was near the top of my obsessions. I heard all about the controversy of their single, "Killing An Arab", how it had been introduced on the radio, and how it gained a disclaimer sticker. I eventually read the first 3 pages of The Stranger and then I stopped. I also never read…

I am intrigued and wonder why you stopped at the third page?

Re: The Absurdity of Albert Camus

#64

Post by janpeuker »

A_D_E_P_T wrote: post #11

As it happens, I recently re-read The Stranger -- the last time was in 2006, so it was essentially fresh. The first half of the short book is easily on-par with any of the great masterpieces of literature. It was written in a direct, vivid, gripping, and yet somehow languorous style -- something almost paradoxical. It was also very attuned to the aesthetics and flow of the outside world, but inattentive to the narrat…

Speaking of the orientalist critique I recommend The Meursault Investigation by Kamel Daoud

Re: The Absurdity of Albert Camus

#65

Post by mkovach »

otekengineering wrote: post #36
firasd wrote: post #16

His Sisyphus essay is famous for its closing line but I find it interesting how for several pages it closes with a thump, thump, thump and metaphor fusion (the essay is ending, the rock is rolling, the gods are watching, the choice is being made...) Even the second-last line is underrated: "There is no fate that can not be surmounted by scorn. [...] His fate belongs to him. His rock is his thing. [...] The absurd man…

> One must imagine Sisyphus happy Notice that Camus doesn't say HOW to imagine Sisyphus happy. How do you? I imagine that he's happy because he takes pride in the quality of his work pushing the stone.

> Notice that Camus doesn't say HOW to imagine Sisyphus happy. How do you?

The gods controlled the ascent, but they forgot to regulate the walk back down. In those brief, unburdened minutes descending the slope, Sisyphus is completely outside their authority.

You can imagine him however you like, laughing at the absurdity of it, studying the mountain, or simply enjoying the breeze. It almost doesn't matter. The walk down belongs to him.

The gods imposed the sentence. Sisyphus decides what it means.

This is Camus' idea of the universe and how to rebel against it by owning and enjoying the small freedoms.

Personally, I believe how you see Sisyphus happy reflects how YOU would enjoy your small freedoms, and this shows how Camus often wanted people to do philosophy on their own.

Re: The Absurdity of Albert Camus

#66

Post by mkovach »

firasd wrote: post #43
otekengineering wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> One must imagine Sisyphus happy Notice that Camus doesn't say HOW to imagine Sisyphus happy. How do you? I imagine that he's happy because he takes pride in the quality of his work pushing the stone.

I don't know if Camus and/or people who're very familiar with his essay would approve but maybe the Pixar movie Soul (2020) has something similar to what he was gesturing at. The protagonist finally gets a big break as a performer and says: "It's just I've been waiting on this day for... my entire life. I thought I'd feel different." The woman replies: "I heard this story about a fish. He swims up to this older fish…

[flagged]

Re: The Absurdity of Albert Camus

#67

Post by ButlerianJihad »

vixen99 wrote: post #63
ButlerianJihad wrote: post #25

I heard of Camus around 1985 when I started listening to the Cure. For several years, I collected Cure records, saw the Cure live, and the Cure was near the top of my obsessions. I heard all about the controversy of their single, "Killing An Arab", how it had been introduced on the radio, and how it gained a disclaimer sticker. I eventually read the first 3 pages of The Stranger and then I stopped. I also never read…

I am intrigued and wonder why you stopped at the third page?

The books I prefer to read are YA fantasy, science fiction, The Chronicles of Narnia, Robert Heinlein, Larry Niven, Clarke, Asimov, Michael Crichton, and so forth.

Mostly, action/adventure plots that are set in fantasy universes, from American/British authors.

I have also read Catholic philosophy, such as St. Thomas Aquinas.

I was curious about Camus' writing style and to see what had inspired Robert Smith to write his lyrics, but I wasn't interested in the philosophy of existentialism, or the gritty reality, or the setting. I don't really like France or French things at all.

Trivia about "Killing An Arab": on the single/studio version, the very last lyrics Robert Smith nearly mumbles: "oh, Mersault!"

Re: The Absurdity of Albert Camus

#68

Post by estearum »

steve_adams_86 wrote: post #53
firasd wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't know if Camus and/or people who're very familiar with his essay would approve but maybe the Pixar movie Soul (2020) has something similar to what he was gesturing at. The protagonist finally gets a big break as a performer and says: "It's just I've been waiting on this day for... my entire life. I thought I'd feel different." The woman replies: "I heard this story about a fish. He swims up to this older fish…

It's so strange in that I recognize that I'm in the ocean and by all means, this is pretty incredible, even when it's not. It's so strange and amazing to be anything at all. And yet the homonculus presses me forward and I want this, need that, think about this, touch that, stare at those, wonder, get frustrated, click my teeth and tap my desk, build this, build that, not good enough, start over... I'm well aware that…

The hedonic treadmill turns even when you know you're on it

Re: The Absurdity of Albert Camus

#69

Post by estearum »

halperter wrote: post #49
throwaway17_17 wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wrote the following and then realized it sounds a little pretentious, but I think it get my point across regardless. Also, I’m not a scholar of Buddhism or a practicing Buddhist, so I could be grossly generalizing or misunderstanding what I have read, but I believe I’m not to far off base. I think the Buddhist reply would be that living without craving and without yearning leads to truly being ‘alive’ and enables o…

Huh, haven't looked at it that way. I'm just not sure about the leap from a lack of craving allows us to truly experience the world. As a general rule, I think humans want more. We usually aren't satisfied with "okay enough" and is what led us to do basically everything we have done. Nobody does something if they don't have a motivation to do it. I think that desire is so fundamental to life that to lead life without…

You can probably fairly trivially prove their claim to yourself with 1-2 months of 10-20min daily of meditation.

There's a reason it's often referred to as "waking up." The essential claim is a bit broader than what it seems like you're picking up. It's not craving = blinding. Or rather that's the most extreme end of the spectrum.

It's that we are effectively going through life in a dreamlike state. We are so preoccupied with the contents of our mind that we effectively "shut out" nearly everything about the actual world. Actually clearing your mind feels quite nearly identical to the sensation of waking up from sleep into the waking world.

A bit of practice meditating, I think you will come to prove them correct. It really is incredible how constantly-full a person's mind is, and the degree to which that distracts them from what's really going on.

Note that what Buddhists call suffering or craving is a far, far more expansive set of things than what you would intuitively describe as such. So I think they can mislead into this craving = blindness extremity.

It's slightly too broad, but probably closer to say "thinking [preoccupation with the contents of your mind] = distraction [from the real experience of being your mind]"

Re: The Absurdity of Albert Camus

#70

Post by navane »

A_D_E_P_T wrote: post #62
halperter wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your analogy of divine justice struck me as rather fitting! Before the trial, the magistrate brandishes the cross to Meursault and demands that Meursault believe that he will be forgiven, lest the magistrate's life lack meaning. Meursault, although "forced" into saying that such a god exists, denies that such a god, a divine judgment, could give life meaning. His position reflects Camus' as Camus believes that hope o…

> Meursault already denies any sense of hope (reflecting his position as the absurd hero), rather, embracing the absurd. It is a bit weird if there would be a focus on the end result, which I don't really think matters, to the reader nor Meursault. This is emphatically not the case, though! Not only does he not deny any sense of hope, he dwells on his hope. He practically lives on it. I'll quote from the book: "There…

I read it for the first time a couple months ago. How I remember the prison scenes was that he felt the emotions happening buy he didn't connect to them. His emotions had as little meaning to him as the trial had, as the murder had, as his girlfriend had, and as his mother had. He just describes what's going on, and because he's locked up in a cell the only thing going on is inside him, but still he does not connect to it. He didn't connect to the world that was outside him, and he doesn't connect to the world that's inside him.

To me the weirdest part of the book, that I find out of character, is that he went along to write that letter for his neighbor, and to aid his neighbor at the police station. If you care so little about anything, if you're that cool, why don't you pass on that weird neighbor. Just close the door without saying anything and go smoke your sigarettes in the window, you poser.

The only way I can make his acts rhyme is if he's just telling himself how cool he is, but he's a actually a social outcast too cool for school who only wants to hang out with people he thinks are cool, e.g. the "bad boy neighbor". That guy was a certified woman beater. And that's the guy he chooses to associate with?

If anything this is the character Dennis of Always Sunny was based on, especially his highschool years.

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