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A migrant surge tests Spain's open policies

economist.com

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Re: A migrant surge tests Spain's open policies

#41

Post by debugnik »

hamper653 wrote: post #36
debugnik wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm talking exclusively about this particular breach. 48000 out of 50000 have returned voluntarily. I don't think that counts as trying, so talking about success is a category error. This was a (deadly) flash mob.

> I'm talking exclusively about this particular breach. Actually OP was talking about migrants crossing from Belarus.

I assumed their qualifier was being applied to this case as well. However I don't think there's any ambiguity about who are we talking about in this specific thread of comments.

Re: A migrant surge tests Spain's open policies

#42

Post by lukan »

shevy-java wrote: post #19
Almondsetat wrote: post #2

It's a coordinated hybrid warfare attack. Terrible title. Or are the "migrants" Belarus has been shipping to Poland also a "surge"?

Agreed. This smells like coordinated externally. Whoever was the main one to have coordinated this should be punished. In case of Finland it was Russia to have coordinated this. In case of Spain, the most logical actor was Morocco. There should be sanctions that are rigidly enforced here. It should also be treated as a military attack against the EU by Morocco, aside from sanctions.

Very easy pushback would be rethinking giving support to Morocco annexing west sahara and rather stick to the UN plan of finally having a referendum.

Re: A migrant surge tests Spain's open policies

#43

Post by lukan »

Almondsetat wrote: post #39
lukan wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think a ragebait twitter profile counts as a reliable source.

The source is the video, not the profile. Are you claiming it's fake?

Are you claiming this video shows free trains for immigrants?

It shows people on cars and police waiving them on like all the other traffic. So possible they especially were set up for the immigrants, but no idea how one can conclude that from this short clip.

Re: A migrant surge tests Spain's open policies

#45

Post by defrost »

Almondsetat wrote: post #39
lukan wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think a ragebait twitter profile counts as a reliable source.

The source is the video, not the profile. Are you claiming it's fake?

The upthread HN claim was that this "was an attack".

The Xitter claim was that:

  Moroccan traffic police keeps directing thousands of illegal migrants toward the Spanish border fence in Ceuta.

  This is a state-orchestrated invasion of Spain.
The video shows a small number of people on a small number of truck beds calmly going about a roundabout.

No visible attack, no proof that the people visible are "thousands of illegal migrants" nor of where they are or where they are headed.

Re: A migrant surge tests Spain's open policies

#46

Post by DrProtic »

This whole concept of you having to accommodate people illegally entering, or in this case, storming your border is so alien to me.

Once a force of 60k men violently break into your country your duty is to start shooting, instead they had Spanish citizens have to bar their house doors and windows with couches and tremble in fear. Completely insane.

Re: A migrant surge tests Spain's open policies

#47

Post by hamper653 »

dtagames wrote: post #32
hamper653 wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why the quotemarks around "migrants"? You think these people aren’t actually migrating from one country to another?

Geographically, they're not. Ceuta occupies a tiny corner of Africa. None of these people reached peninsular Spain and they are not migrants fleeing into Europe to live there.

Most of these people aren’t from Morocco, so they already were migrants before even making into Ceuta, which is Spain, hence yet another country.

Re: A migrant surge tests Spain's open policies

#48

Post by hamper653 »

debugnik wrote: post #14
hamper653 wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why the quotemarks around "migrants"? You think these people aren’t actually migrating from one country to another?

48000 out of 50000 in Ceuta's breach won't be migrating actually, since they've already returned voluntarily. Most either were agitators or have realised they weren't any better off on the other side.

Most have already migrated actually, unless you believe they were born in Morocco. And their intention was obviously to settle in Europe through Spain.

Re: A migrant surge tests Spain's open policies

#49

Post by hamper653 »

Almondsetat wrote: post #28
hamper653 wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why the quotemarks around "migrants"? You think these people aren’t actually migrating from one country to another?

Until it's proven they want to actually move there, they cannot be called migrants. In fact, 90% of them have gone back to Morocco, so not much permanence to speak of

Unless they were born in Morocco, they are migrants. And why else would they move into Ceuta like this?

Re: A migrant surge tests Spain's open policies

#50

Post by hamper653 »

debugnik wrote: post #41
hamper653 wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I'm talking exclusively about this particular breach. Actually OP was talking about migrants crossing from Belarus.

I assumed their qualifier was being applied to this case as well. However I don't think there's any ambiguity about who are we talking about in this specific thread of comments.

There is also no ambiguity about them being migrants.
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