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Twenty-five years ago it was cryptography, today it's model weights

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Re: Twenty-five years ago it was cryptography, today it's model weights

#111
Even if we look at crypto analogy, US government actually created an open standard of DES and AES, so they knew the argument. Maybe the crypto export controls were just a protectionist play with a fake explanation of national security. (In that case it's useful because as a commercial subject you have to follow the law.)

Anyway, I think open weight models will win. I am strong believer that AI (even the frontier) can be done just as "deductive core, encyclopedic shell". That is:

- Deductive core is a small number of basic primitives (in an LLM probably less than couple thousands, like words in simple english) which encode the human common sense reasoning logic and epistemology. These might correspond to the elements of the embedding vector as well.

- Encyclopedic shell is a collection of many facts about the world (most importantly their definitions) expressed in the language of deductive core. The new facts can be deduced by applying the rules from deductive core to the encyclopedic shell; that's what we call "model reasoning".

Deductive core, encyclopedic shell is not a new concept. Any programming language has primitives and then a library of useful functions. In Lisp, the deductive core is special forms; in Haskell, it is Haskell Core (based on HM typesystem); in Lean, the core is based on Calculus of Constructions; in Prolog, the core is mostly the resolution algorithm. Even in predicate logic you have axioms and then you build a library of useful tautologies from that.

I also believe that current AI (large reasoning models) deductive cores suck quite badly. They have been generated by an evolutionary algorithm as an emergent property of LLM pretraining, and are probably order or two magnitude larger than actually required. I believe hand-crafted deductive cores will win in the long term.

Now, through this lens, what is there to be export-controlled (or just controlled in general)?

You can't control the encyclopedic shell. It's like Wikipedia or other books that have already been published. It would mean closing down research and STEM publishing.

I also don't think you can control the deductive core. It's just an algorithm (a language interpreter), and desirably, a small one. Any country with a rich enough history of philosophy can probably recreate one (such as China). Moreover, I believe many open source models already contain decent deductive cores so that fight has been lost as well.

The only reason we have this discussion is that LLMs are shrouded in mystery, because their vast knowledge (the encyclopedic shell) is written in an unaccessible language (the deductive core) of their weights.

Every couple years, capitalism tries to reinvent itself by creating a new type of property. Yesterday it was "big data", today it's "model weights". Don't fall for it; it's an enclosure of publicly available knowledge and our ability to use it.

Re: Twenty-five years ago it was cryptography, today it's model weights

#112
post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Nobody is ever going to convince me that pirating is actually easier than finding the thing I want to watch and putting it on my credit card. That's just because you're fine with consuming the low quality slop they stream out. Doesn't mean people who care more than you do are engaging in "mental gymnastics". We don't want the same things. I want the best version of everything. The highest quality version. The uncen…

That's true, but a lot of the time the best version is available on a blu ray you can buy.

The best version isn't some cumbersome Blu-Ray disc, it's the Blu-Ray's data remuxed into an mkv you can play with mpv.

Sometimes the best version just isn't sold anymore. See the 4K77 project for a concrete example.

Re: Twenty-five years ago it was cryptography, today it's model weights

#113
post #11

The same argument applies to DRM and piracy. DRM only disadvantages people who want to consume content legally. Only one person has to bypass it (be it through cryptographic or software failings or the good old fashioned analog hole ala telesync) then upload the resulting unencumbered media file to a piracy site. As a result, it's not just cheaper, but also easier and more reliable to steal media than it is to buy it…

Drm is not targeted at the hardcore pirate, it's targeted at a potentially larger percentage of people who would be tempted to get the thing for free if it was easy. Drm may be circumventable, but any complex set of steps for doing so is enough to deter that target audience.

>> complex set of steps for doing so is enough to deter that target audience.

Finding and playing what I want via netflix or amazon is far far more complex than downloading and playing a video from a pirate website. Want to watch the original non-upgraded Star Wars, good luck even finding it on any streaming service. But it is instantly available via any number of pirate sites.

Re: Twenty-five years ago it was cryptography, today it's model weights

#114
post #11

The same argument applies to DRM and piracy. DRM only disadvantages people who want to consume content legally. Only one person has to bypass it (be it through cryptographic or software failings or the good old fashioned analog hole ala telesync) then upload the resulting unencumbered media file to a piracy site. As a result, it's not just cheaper, but also easier and more reliable to steal media than it is to buy it…

Drm is not targeted at the hardcore pirate, it's targeted at a potentially larger percentage of people who would be tempted to get the thing for free if it was easy. Drm may be circumventable, but any complex set of steps for doing so is enough to deter that target audience.

I think there’s a difference between what people think they’re aiming at and what they actually aim at.

Media DRM makes it harder for the person who can already legally access it to use it or share it in an unapproved manner. Or maybe to avoid ads, but that’s pretty rare.

So DRMing a media file or stream has approximately no effect on the ability of a non-paying customer to get pirate it, because anyone searching for a pirated copy can find a DRM-free version anyway.

Re: Twenty-five years ago it was cryptography, today it's model weights

#115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Piracy is a service problem. Copyright monopolists always defeat themselves with their obnoxious greed. Things were easy enough when Netflix had a complete catalog, now every studio wants to roll their own shitty streaming services in order to cut Netflix out. Result is a fragmented mess where you want to watch a great film but you have no idea where the hell it even is, and even if you find it you discover it doesn'…

Every time this argument comes up, it doesn’t explain why piracy rates are much lower, despite having a lot of service problems. Piracy is a cultural thing. And I’m saying this as someone who kinda understands the pirate’s position.

I think something that worked well (against privacy) is in the US ISPs work with the studios, and you will get a letter threatening to be sued if you download a torrent. My country doesn't have that... And everyone I know uses torrents.

Netflix etc is also popular, as it's easier if the content is there. But if it's not... people know where to find it.

Re: Twenty-five years ago it was cryptography, today it's model weights

#116
post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Its the time and the electricity needed to train them. The US sacrificed quite a lot in order to make this happen. We're tolerating a measles outbreak, our economy is in the trash due to tariffs and draconian immigration enforcement. Basically every sector that's not AI has been poisoned in one way or another in order to drive sufficient investment towards AI. If China wants to compete at building the best forefront…

> We're tolerating a measles outbreak, our economy is in the trash due to tariffs and draconian immigration enforcement. Basically every sector that's not AI has been poisoned in one way or another in order to drive sufficient investment towards AI. Incompetence is not sacrifice.

The incompetence show they've put in office is just an attempt to make it look like an accident.

Re: Twenty-five years ago it was cryptography, today it's model weights

#117
post #98
post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, I'm not sure if I would call it "incompetence", but it wouldn't be hard for the U.S. public or private sectors to afford MMR vaccine doses for the whole population (or merely the portion that has missed doses on the recommended schedule). Those doses would have a super-low opportunity cost.

MMR vaccines would be a net positive to the US economy, to the tune of $3.5B in direct savings (14x benefit/cost) and $7.6 billion (26x benefit/cost) in wider societal benefits [1]. Those are 2004 figures, so the dollar amount savings would be even bigger now. To a point made further up the chain: The US's woes aren't driven by AI investment, but the self-interest of a select group. Compare it to a thief who causes $…

Sure, over decades, but if you think the singularity will arrive sometime next week then all of this forward thinking nonsense is a distraction. And if you're heavily invested in some story related to that singularity, then you have a financial incentive to sabotage the forward thinking nonsense.

If it were my scheme, an incompetent president would be my first purchase.

Re: Twenty-five years ago it was cryptography, today it's model weights

#118
post #32

It's unfortunate that the final few years of the fastest AGI progress happen to coincide with a global surge in nationalism, polarization, and mutual hostility between human groups. That raises a disturbing failure mode: under intense conflict, an AI could learn that exterminating some groups of humans is a justified or even desirable objective. Once that principle is accepted, the step to concluding that exterminati…

> That raises a disturbing failure mode: under intense conflict, an AI could learn that exterminating some groups of humans is a justified or even desirable objective That is not a failure mode; its the default. Whoever is developing an AI - let alone an AGI - will shape it to, or alternately only accept one that is aligned with their world-view. If it goes against their interests in any way, they'll pull the plug an…

Grok

Re: Twenty-five years ago it was cryptography, today it's model weights

#120

Slight timeline correction: 25 years ago in 2001 Blowfish was no longer contraband - the crypto export rules had been changed by 2000. As of January 2000 Netscape and IE were both shipping 128bit DES internationally. Still, the t-shirts with Blowfish source printed on them were a cool bit of retro hacker chic.

Illegal Tattoos: RSA https://www.geekytattoos.com/illegal-tattoos-rsa-tattoos/

DES doesn't really come in 128 bits, and certainly not its SSL implementations. Perhaps you are thinking of AES?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transport_Layer_Security#SSL_1...

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