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Is AI reasoning right for the wrong reasons?

quantamagazine.org

81–90 of 268 posts

Re: Is AI reasoning right for the wrong reasons?

#81
post #68

The more I read about LLMs and more complex ML in general, the more I realize nobody really knows what is going on.

I took a "Deep Learning" CS class in college back when it was in its early stages. I doubt the field is still called that now, but it was the subset of ML that has been rebranded as AI; includes LLMs, image generation, image recognition, etc. Like any class, it was confusing at first, but when I eventually grasped the math behind what we were doing, and of course the visual representations of different elements to sh…

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Re: Is AI reasoning right for the wrong reasons?

#82

There is a long history of bad naming conventions in the field of AI, including “artificial intelligence” itself imo. (What is “intelligence” here? It’s more like “automation” or “automated problem solving”.) What really happens is that we figure out something that works, sometimes inspired by some biological thing or neuroscience thing. Examples: neural network, attention, reasoning, hallucination, agents, experts i…

Automated problem solving... of specifically the kind of problems we'd normally need human intelligence to solve (coding, translation, etc.). So "automated intelligence" would make sense to me.

Re: Is AI reasoning right for the wrong reasons?

#83
LLMs lack qualia, among other things.

If I ask an LLM "what is an apple?" it tells me:

> An apple is the edible fruit of the apple tree, scientifically known as Malus domestica. It is one of the world's most widely grown fruits and is eaten fresh or used in many foods and drinks.

If I ask an LLM "what is a mundu fruit?" it tells me:

> Mundu is a tropical fruit native to Southeast Asia, especially found in Indonesia, Malaysia, Thailand, and Cambodia. It comes from a small evergreen tree in the same genus as mangosteen.

I've never eaten a mundu fruit. To me, an apple and a mundu fruit are categorically different. An apple is a fruit that I've held, touched, tasted, eaten, enjoyed, cooked with. A mundu fruit is an abstract experience: text, images, only slightly more real than a fictional fruit. I'm aware that mundu fruit exist, just as the LLM is aware the apples exist, but that doesn't make them exist for me.

"Existing in an abstract way" is how an LLM experiences everything. To an LLM, an apple and a mundu fruit are in the same category. The LLM has been trained on text about both fruit, it's seen images of both fruit, it knows everything that has been recorded about both fruit ...except everything that's important to know about a fruit.

Many of our issues with LLMs arise because from the LLM's perspective, nothing exists. If Claude accidentally deletes your production database, it may well apologize afterward, but only because an apology is statistically likely. It doesn't feel guilt like a human would, and the lack of consequences makes any action an LLM takes inherently frivolous. We want them to understand what's real and what's not, but without any lived experience perhaps that's an unreasonable expectation.

Re: Is AI reasoning right for the wrong reasons?

#85
post #27

An intuitive explanation for why reasoning tokens help is to remember that LLMs are just mathmatical functions f() that take in an input sequence x and produces the next token f(x). Without reasoning tokens, you require the function f() to immediately take you from x to the start of an output sequence that is a correct answer. With reasoning tokens, this is much relaxed, allowing for many repeated applications of f()…

Not only that! LLM can also learn how to repeatedly apply f() for certain arguments, and run the shortcut. Sometimes, the shortcut learned is not actually repeated application of f(), which breaks semantic soundness of LLM's reasoning chain.

These shortcuts can greatly help reasoning, but they are not guaranteed to be sound. So yeah, in that case, LLMs are reasoning right (using shortcuts) for the wrong reasons (learning them from data instead by running actual repeated application and memoizing the resulting rule).

Re: Is AI reasoning right for the wrong reasons?

#86
post #73

This feels like a problem with anthropomorphizing. We’re using words like “reasoning” and “thinking” because they are comfortable, and then we’re getting wrapped around the axle because we’re not sure if those words are totally accurate. I assure you that they aren’t accurate (the model is not alive and it’s all just a lot of matrix math under the hood), but there are no good alternative words. If we wanted to be acc…

LLM's reason and think in the way that boats "swim" and planes "fly". It is an analogy. But nevertheless, planes do take you where you want to go, and so do LLMs.

I think we are in sort of the place where before the invention of planes, the only things that "flew" were animals with wings that flapped. The flapping wings might seem to be a core part of the process of flight, and that if you lacked flapping wings, you were doing something other than flying. But maybe the point is moving through the air under your own power. Balloons fly, planes fly, helicopters fly. They just do it in a different way from birds and insects.

Re: Is AI reasoning right for the wrong reasons?

#87

LLMs lack qualia, among other things. If I ask an LLM "what is an apple?" it tells me: > An apple is the edible fruit of the apple tree, scientifically known as Malus domestica. It is one of the world's most widely grown fruits and is eaten fresh or used in many foods and drinks. If I ask an LLM "what is a mundu fruit?" it tells me: > Mundu is a tropical fruit native to Southeast Asia, especially found in Indonesia,…

> We want them to understand what's

We want them to assess what's true and what's not.

Re: Is AI reasoning right for the wrong reasons?

#88
post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> humans reasoned before language That's an interesting supposition. Are you assuming language didn't exist before it was written? Language and meaning are, if you squint, pretty ancient and have roots in things like birdsong. It could be that ur-semantics predates our species as a whole.

It’s pretty clear that animals that don’t use a system of language are capable of reasoning. No need to over complicate things.

Good observation. I’m certainly not trying to over complicate things. That just tells us, though, that the bio-mechanical computation part is there before language, which I took as a foregone conclusion, it being meatware and all.

Re: Is AI reasoning right for the wrong reasons?

#89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do your three employers know that you're doing this? if not, it's fraud, and you'd better hope that they don't catch on. Check your employment paperwork.

explain to me how it is fraud when they are satisfied with the work and im hitting all their milestones why would I tell them I am working for 3 employers how does that serve my interest and why do you insist on having employers have all the edge in the relationship and non as the employee for the first time i have rid the shackles of the bondage as old as the industrial revolution thanks to AI and your response is t…

Holy run-on sentence batman, maybe you do need AI.

Your employers are (likely, some assumption here) paying for the productivity of a full time employee. You have figured out that they're satisfied with a third of that productivity.

You are the reason why there are so many return-to-office mandates, because you're projecting the idea that remote employees cannot be trusted. You're making it worse for everyone. Good luck.

Edit, added after the original reply: You are also taking 3 jobs in a market where many people struggle to find one. You are hoarding resources. Enjoy the 3 paychecks, also rot in hell.

Re: Is AI reasoning right for the wrong reasons?

#90
post #7

I'll admit that I find this discussion a bit navel-gazy. It has become a question of semantics not a question of actual functionality. The question has become "what do we mean when we use the word 'reasoning'" which is uninteresting. Dijkstra said[1] "... the question whether computers can think. The question is just as relevant and just as meaningful as the question whether submarines can swim." I don't see a clear…

In order to properly engineer things, we must know how they work.

We cannot just jump from emergent property to more convincing emergent property as if the rocks on the surface of a lake.

"Reasoning" is an important part in said framework: yes, we must understand how it works, how it works properly, how its simulations work, how they work properly...

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