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IMAX vs. IMAX 70mm: The difference between these two cinema formats

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Re: IMAX vs. IMAX 70mm: The difference between these two cinema formats

#61
post #58
post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hmm are you sure 5mm is audio? This article claims Audio is added via USB Stick or CD https://www.theppt.org/rewind/articles/where-can-you-watch-t...

I was referring to regular 70mm, in which 65mm is for the picture and 5mm is to allow for the sound channels. I am not surprised - squeezing even more out of the film, that IMAX would just put audio separately.

I am also referring to regular 70mm, not IMAX, so is that part of the article.

> 70mm film uses DTS audio, which is supplied to the cinema on either CD-ROMs, or (more recently) via USB sticks.

Re: IMAX vs. IMAX 70mm: The difference between these two cinema formats

#62
post #27

If you want a very in depth technical look at the differences between IMAX 70mm, 70mm and 35mm for _The Odyssey_, I wrote an article about this last month. https://www.theppt.org/rewind/articles/where-can-you-watch-t... But here are my nit-picks from the article linked here. I'm only commenting on the 15/70mm IMAX parts, because I'm not knowledgable enough about the digital IMAX foramats. > The extra resolution, up t…

Not a complaint about your post but this stuff about film formats and aspect ratios has always had me scratching my head. For years I heard people arguing that wider aspect ratios were preferable because they afforded a wider view, and that narrower aspect ratios were too restrictive horizontally. This always seemed confusing to me because theoretically they should allow for more vertical space for the same width. No…

> Now we're being told the opposite.

The choice of unusual film standards has always been to make the film a bit "special" when viewed in a suitable cinema.

The original format 1.33:1 was simply using 35mm wide film (originally 1.35") and after putting sprocket holes on each side, there was 1" of usable width, and someone decided to make a frame 1" x 0.75". The projected image was just scaled linearly.

When they started adding audio, the image was shrunk slightly to 22mm x 16mm (the ratio of this image was modified slightly to 1.375:1), and the audio track was just placed between the right hand edge and sprockets. They could use the same projector technology, just with a mask between the film and the lens so that the audio track didn't appear on the screen, and an optical pickup head for the audio that was placed below the mask and lens.

As an aside - a silent movie projector has a complicated gear system that advances the film 4 sprockets in a jerk, once every 24 times per second, while before and after that it is fed smoothly (so you have a "loop" of film above and below to take up the slack). You also have a shutter that closes for half the frame to hide the film when it's actually moving, and open when it's stationary. When the audio passes the audio sensor after the bottom loop, it's moving linearly, so the amount of light that can pass through a narrow slit is proportional to the voltage sent to the speaker. Later when stereo was added to films, they just fit 2 audio tracks into the space of one, so mono films would work on stereo projectors and vice versa. And even later, Dolby surround was encoded as a dot matrix pattern in between the sprockets (actually, it was just a film ID and timecode that was encoded) and the audio itself came from the 3-5 CDs that came with each film. But I'm getting ahead of myself.

These two standards stuck around for quite a while and then some of the later experimental TV systems started also using this ratio, probably to making filming non-live TV possible / easier as they could use the film process and show it on a TV using a telecine without wasting any of the image space.

Once TVs started to become popular, directors started wanting to make their films more special, something that couldn't be experienced the same way on a TV. And so began the arms race on picture formats. For a while 1.66:1 was popular, which used the same projectors as before but changed out the lens for an anamorphic lens which squished the image to make it wider. And soon, 1.85:1 was standardised (with a different anamorphic lens and mask). This was known as "flat" and was used by the majority of films. Some of the higher budget films were produced in 2.35:1, known as cinemascope or just "scope" and so now most cinemas had 3 sets of masks and lenses - square, flat and scope - and could show pretty much everything with a pair of projectors just by swapping the lenses. A few special aspect ratios were tried, but these were usually limited distribution to specialised cinemas, and cropped to a standard size for regular cinemas. In this era, usually the curtains could move to the correct width for each film, or fully closed.

70mm film has been around for quite a long time, but never really caught on as it was expensive to shoot - non standard cameras, roughly 4 times the area of film (and so at least 4 times the cost, but more because demand was lower), and limited where it could be seen as most projectors were 35mm only. It was possible to get projectors that had a swappable gate so you could also show 70mm film, but they were relatively rare - probably less than 10% of cinemas had these. The aspect ratio was almost always 2.2:1, and so while it was narrower than scope format, people would pay extra for the 70mm experience because of the higher quality (and less grainy look).

In the 1990s, TVs started shifting to 16:9 (1.77:1) which was a half-way compromise between improving the quality for films (1.85:1 scope doesn't need to be cropped much or only has small bars top and bottom) and leaving masses of unused space for older 4:3 TV broadcasts. However 16:9 was never used for cinema, and more directors switched to 2.35:1 for films after that to keep the "better in cinema" quality.

So personally, I don't think 1.43:1 is really any better for 70mm (after all the film is so much bigger, the quality is already improved), rather it's almost certainly been chosen so that it looks different, and much better at cinema. Just as films shown in "letterbox format" on TV with half the screen black looked bad on a 4:3 TV, now pretty much every TV is 16:9, watching a 1.43:1 film on it will have big black bars on the side and detract from the experience. The cinema will be the best place to watch this.

So, IMHO, it's all just a marketing gimmick aimed at those that want to pay a premium to see a film as the director intended it.

Re: IMAX vs. IMAX 70mm: The difference between these two cinema formats

#63
post #27

If you want a very in depth technical look at the differences between IMAX 70mm, 70mm and 35mm for _The Odyssey_, I wrote an article about this last month. https://www.theppt.org/rewind/articles/where-can-you-watch-t... But here are my nit-picks from the article linked here. I'm only commenting on the 15/70mm IMAX parts, because I'm not knowledgable enough about the digital IMAX foramats. > The extra resolution, up t…

Not a complaint about your post but this stuff about film formats and aspect ratios has always had me scratching my head. For years I heard people arguing that wider aspect ratios were preferable because they afforded a wider view, and that narrower aspect ratios were too restrictive horizontally. This always seemed confusing to me because theoretically they should allow for more vertical space for the same width. No…

I think the part you’re missing is the screen size in theatres. I saw The Odyssey in two formats (70mm normal film, and Dolby Cinema).

In both theatres, the screen and image took up the nearly entire height and width of the theatre. The image filled the screen. The 70mm theatre I saw it at had a very wide screen, but not very tall. Filled the wall though

So even if it’s possible to project a digital version in the 1.43:1 aspect ratio, you’d end up with severe cropping on the edges.

That’s not the point of this IMAX format.

The point of this IMAX format is to have a screen that’s literally twice as tall as those normal screens. To accomplish that, you need a really, really big room. Most theatres can’t physically fit these screen sizes. That’s why 1.43:1 IMAX is so rare compared to 1.90:1.

So when you see it in a theatre like that, firstly the image is really big. But the main thing is that the image stretches past your peripheral vision vertically. In fact, at my local one (which recently shut down, no Odyssey), you can’t even see the bottom of the screen, just a slight curve at the edge of the floor. Which doesn’t matter because the image is framed to not put important info there. The point is for the image to be bigger than life.

Showing a cropped version is just not equivalent to that. You could argue that we should have the choice. But I think generally because of how it’s framed, I’d rather it just take up the full size of my TV. So IMAX releases sometimes come out 16:9 instead of cropped top and bottom.

Re: IMAX vs. IMAX 70mm: The difference between these two cinema formats

#64
post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not a complaint about your post but this stuff about film formats and aspect ratios has always had me scratching my head. For years I heard people arguing that wider aspect ratios were preferable because they afforded a wider view, and that narrower aspect ratios were too restrictive horizontally. This always seemed confusing to me because theoretically they should allow for more vertical space for the same width. No…

> Now we're being told the opposite. The choice of unusual film standards has always been to make the film a bit "special" when viewed in a suitable cinema. The original format 1.33:1 was simply using 35mm wide film (originally 1.35") and after putting sprocket holes on each side, there was 1" of usable width, and someone decided to make a frame 1" x 0.75". The projected image was just scaled linearly. When they star…

I don’t think you covered the difference between 70mm and IMAX 70mm. One frame of IMAX is basically 3 frames of normal 70mm. So it is physically 3 times bigger

I’d say that yes it’s a marketing technique, but for these releases it’s not a gimmick. If you have a chance to watch a film in 1.43:1, you should try it. The difference is how big it is, and especially how tall it is. Most theatres don’t physically have the size for it. Film could be gimmicky, but I can clearly notice the difference. (Was at a film release that had to fall back to digital at a couple points, and it was very obvious to me, but not my friends with me.)

What’s gimmicky is when normal movies release for IMAX without filling that full aspect ratio. Or when you have a tiny IMAX screen

Re: IMAX vs. IMAX 70mm: The difference between these two cinema formats

#65
post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don’t understand how even the preference for shooting on film makes any sense if you’re digitizing, heavily processing, adding entirely digital elements … I get putting the final edit to film. If you’re not doing all that additional garbage, then capturing on film, going digital for basic editing, then back to film might make sense.

Sure, let me explain it to you. The end result is not recreatable with digital assets. i.e.: It doesn't matter your budget, we cannot currently simulate the look of the original footage shot on 35 (let alone 70mm, forget about IMAX 80mm) by shooting digitally. Also what you're referring to as 'garbage', is colour grading and composite work. It's not adulteration, it's an essential create part of the filmmaking work.…

I work in this industry and I don’t think this is true. Look at these tests, using a camera that’s now two generations out of date:

https://youtu.be/suZtYPIADHM?si=KMgFb1gEhA7z7QVm

I think what makes film great is more the process. It forces slower more deliberate filmmaking and somehow that seems to show up in the product. Only celebrated/respected filmmakers have the influence to force production to allow them to shoot film so there’s a selection bias at play too.

Re: IMAX vs. IMAX 70mm: The difference between these two cinema formats

#66

I think it's interesting how we went from 4:3 to 16:9, and are now back to something very close to 4:3 again. And both changes were sold as "you can now see even more of the movie".

Most of that discussion is less about any advantages inherent to either aspect ratio and more about just viewing the film as the director originally intended.

The cinematographer would have composed shots for the main 1.43:1 aspect ratio first while taking into consideration the other aspect ratios (the viewfinder will overlay the different framelines to help make those decisions). The DP then gets to go back in during post and recompose each shot for the different formats as needed, tweaking what was originally shot to do their best to maintain a cohesive feel and emphasis across each crop. With five different formats for The Odyssey[0], I'm sure that was a fun experience.

It's not that one format is inherently better. The frame is a storytelling tool, and you can use different aspect ratios to influence how audiences perceive the film.[1] It's when you start changing it afterwards with little regard for the director's original intentions that we see problems. The old pan-and-scan movie releases for VHS or cheap 16:9 conversions are frustrating examples.

0. https://www.odysseymovie.co.uk/explore-formats/

1. https://www.cined.com/aspect-ratio-as-a-storytelling-tool-a-...

Re: IMAX vs. IMAX 70mm: The difference between these two cinema formats

#69

If you want a very in depth technical look at the differences between IMAX 70mm, 70mm and 35mm for _The Odyssey_, I wrote an article about this last month. https://www.theppt.org/rewind/articles/where-can-you-watch-t... But here are my nit-picks from the article linked here. I'm only commenting on the 15/70mm IMAX parts, because I'm not knowledgable enough about the digital IMAX foramats. > The extra resolution, up t…

7 or 8 of which are in California

Re: IMAX vs. IMAX 70mm: The difference between these two cinema formats

#70

This is purely my opinion. I see 70mm as mostly a movie scam to extort exorbitant amounts of cash from a ticket for something that's vaguely noticeable outside the aspect ratio itself. Note that I'm not disputing that there is a visual difference, there is, the image is clearer, shaper, with better darks, but the entry fee paired with how out of the way 70mm is, it's just ends up feeling like FOMO. My opinion doesn't…

Define exporbant? Subjective experience but the differnece in 70mm imax vs Imax was $7ish in SF
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