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"the very foundation of modern academia has been blown to bits"

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Re: "the very foundation of modern academia has been blown to bits"

#51
post #39

The largest output of a PhD has always been the training to the student, not the thesis itself, hence why we're called 'students'. Anyone claiming that a thesis can be generated by AI is missing the point. AI can also do everything an undergrad can do, we don't claim that undergrad education has been blown to bits. At best, we say we need better modes of evaluation, and perhaps that's true for PhDs as well. I submitt…

And how is the PhD student trained? By doing research and writing about it by him/herself. > we don't claim that undergrad education has been blown to bits But it has been. People pass CS classes without knowing how to write even a simple program. How do you think they'll fare? As a meme said: you'd better start eating real healthy, because your future doctor will graduate using chatgpt.

>> we don't claim that undergrad education has been blown to bits > But it has been.

Let me fix it: pen and paper. There you go, bada-bing bada-bum. In our uni the exam for Algorithms and Data Structures (one that most people struggle with) is done on paper in an exam room. You better know your binary search.

People, especially wealthy, have been coasting through education paying someone to write their papers since Great Pumpkin knows how long. Now you can do same thing cheaply with LLM’s. The solution is pretty simple, let them fail. Have them show what they can do live in front of examiners. Here’s a computer without network card, only Python and SQLite installed with the Python basic documentation, build me X and prove it works in Z, Y, and Q.

I am studying my second degree and although there’s million and one ways to cheat, I won’t, since A) I want to learn this shot B) I am not sure LLM’s will be available with these capacity and with theses prices in the future, at least I won’t count on it.

Re: "the very foundation of modern academia has been blown to bits"

#52

I've seen a student using ChatGPT for almost everything in his PhD (in engineering). You have some data but you don't know what kind of statistical analysis tool to use? Ask ChatGPT. Code for the analysis? ChatGPT. How do you interpret the results? ChatGPT. And so on. I could bet that some of his scientific questions where generated, and that's no surprise to me, it's just SO easy this way and if the PhD advisor just…

> It's your responsibility as a scientist to step up and say that some research is garbage when you see it.

The only case I personally know of someone doing that during their PhD didn't end well.

My friend couldn't replicate the results from a known professor in the field, asked for the data + model to re-run because he assumed his own work was wrong and wanted to benchmark against the known study. Got stonewalled for more than a year, brought it up with supervisors because he started getting the feeling the results were tampered and the professor didn't want to be found out. He pushed it but got ridiculed by the professor's university ethics committee.

After a couple of years he could show that the research was at least sketchy and he depended on that model/results for his own work, he lost 2 years of research and completely left academia after finishing the PhD (delayed by almost 2 years).

Re: "the very foundation of modern academia has been blown to bits"

#53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They are saying that the value of most PhDs was in the learning the student got in the process, not in the PhD itself. Groundbreaking PhDs exist, but they are far, far , from the norm or expectation. Exceptional people doing exceptional work will always exist. > your thesis had no value to begin with, because it’s mainly a teaching exercise And that’s the problem in your understanding. Thinking that a teaching exerci…

The value of the exercises you do in school (from sums to PhDs) is the learning you get from them. Good, because you need people to learn stuff, because the people that know stuff will be dead in a few years and you need to replace them. Except, if machines can do the exercises up to the PhDs, you probably don't need those brains in the future, at least not as many as before. You might need only the brightest ones, a…

Yes, that at least is a valid argument. I do’t really agree with it though. Humans need meaning and purpose in life. Intellectual pursuit is that meaning or purpose for a lot of people. The Educational institutes might change drastically from how they have been in the last few centuries, but people will never seize learning. The act of learning is in itself incredible rewardig to many people.

> at least not as many as before. You might need only the brightest ones, and who knows for how long? The next ten years?

Then those with power will keep it and pass it on to their heirs, and some without will try to finesse it but the masses will be told “we don’t need you”. I think in a lot of ways, this is similar to how feudal societies were. Maybe humanity will pass through another phase of that. Maybe we already are. But I think it won’t last either.

Re: "the very foundation of modern academia has been blown to bits"

#54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

“If algorithmic targeting disrupts your society, the culprit is most likely not algorithmic targeting” Or replace AI/algorithmic targeting with tech in general and the disruption target with whatever it targets and you’d realize the problem with the sentence. Technological advances have disrupted plenty of fields. That doesn’t mean those fields were fundamentally flawed. Every arena has a certain degree of dysfunctio…

If tech is disrupting X, that’s a problem with X” tends to be said by people who have X comfortably sorted themselves (e.g., already have a PhD that counts as it’s from the pre-LLM days). In the end it depends on whether one considers technological progress or human flourishing to be the end goal. Surprise—they are not always aligned, and sometimes are at odds with each other.

Agreed. It can also be people who have problems with X for other reasons and like to see X “disrupted” (e.g. a disgruntled grad student who got screwed over by a bad advisor or a hard working and capable office employee who got passed over for a less capable, less hardworking PhD holder).

Like I had many bad experiences in cabs in my younger years. It was just bad luck really, but I hated cabs for the longest time because of that and completely dreaded needing them. When Uber was first coming on the scene and cab drivers were protesting against it, I did think to my self something along the lines of “if an app can destroy your business, the problem was in your business” but I really just didn’t like cabs for other reasons. And the irony is now Uber is the same. When I land in my airport, I see crazy lines for rideshare with people waiting on cars to come pick them up, while there is a cab on the other side that is ~$15 cheaper somehow and ready to go with no lines. And I get to tip the driver those saved 15 bucks

Re: "the very foundation of modern academia has been blown to bits"

#55
post #44

We’re at the point of learning that some things that used to matter no longer do, and some things we used to think mattered never did. It’s a going to be a shock to everyone, and this same phenomenon is happening everywhere, not just academia or software engineering. My bet: a lot of the things we used to do were habit, ceremony and gatekeeping much more than being necessities.

I find that I'm much more tolerant of bad spelling and terrible punctuation because I know that a human being wrote it in the end. It's kind of hilarious that a sign of poor quality is now a sign of passion if not quality now.

There's an LLM prompt that will trivially do that.

Re: "the very foundation of modern academia has been blown to bits"

#56

I am not sure what point the author is even trying to make here. On the one hand, he seems to complain about how AI has virtually made the traditionally PhD thesis obsolete, but on the other hand, he also states: > Consider that most PhD theses were never good. How often do you rush to read a PhD thesis? The vast majority of them are painful to read. You learn little if anything. So, it sounds like nothing of much va…

> AI is starting to show that the emperor called academia has no clothes

Why single out academia? We're seeing vast majority of knowledge work had no clothes.

>working your way through that system >pointless rituals >rethink their way of doing things, and they really don't like it

Re: "the very foundation of modern academia has been blown to bits"

#57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

“If algorithmic targeting disrupts your society, the culprit is most likely not algorithmic targeting” Or replace AI/algorithmic targeting with tech in general and the disruption target with whatever it targets and you’d realize the problem with the sentence. Technological advances have disrupted plenty of fields. That doesn’t mean those fields were fundamentally flawed. Every arena has a certain degree of dysfunctio…

Travel agents are not extinct AT ALL. They pivoted from selling margin-less flights to design more curated travel packages. Different and nichier market for sure, but not extinct.

Fair point. They also still exist for corporate and business travels. But it’s fair to say the field did get massively disrupted (god I hate that word) because of technology.

Re: "the very foundation of modern academia has been blown to bits"

#58

PhDs only were adopted universally in 1917 with some resistance and apprehension. The issue here is that academia forgot what it was about a long time ago and is now having to face the consequences for a hundred years of bad decisions.

> PhDs only were adopted universally in 1917

In Oxford. That hardly counts as universal.

Re: "the very foundation of modern academia has been blown to bits"

#60
post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And how is the PhD student trained? By doing research and writing about it by him/herself. > we don't claim that undergrad education has been blown to bits But it has been. People pass CS classes without knowing how to write even a simple program. How do you think they'll fare? As a meme said: you'd better start eating real healthy, because your future doctor will graduate using chatgpt.

>> we don't claim that undergrad education has been blown to bits > But it has been. Let me fix it: pen and paper. There you go, bada-bing bada-bum. In our uni the exam for Algorithms and Data Structures (one that most people struggle with) is done on paper in an exam room. You better know your binary search. People, especially wealthy, have been coasting through education paying someone to write their papers since G…

Live exam, perfectly fine. You can use an LLM as support while you study, no problem, as a glorified search engine. On steroids. From the future. Then you prove you understood it.

Writing an essay, or a thesis, with LLM assist, is difficult to avoid in this scenario, though. It would require your prof, TA or examination committee to read the thing fully and understand the topic deeply. For 101 courses, that's doable, but for a PhD, that's so much work, that it'll break the system immediately.

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