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Here’s why other countries beat the U.S. in reading and math

washingtonpost.com

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Re: Here’s why other countries beat the U.S. in reading and math

#41

Post by kenjackson »

dspeyer wrote: post #27
luu wrote: post #3

I'm never sure what to think about these articles. I've been seeing these since I was a kid (20 years ago), and yet, U.S. adults seem to do fine; the U.S. continues to be a hotbed of innovation. Not only is SV an unrivaled center of gravity for CS/EE type innovation, the U.S. also has world class ME, ChemE, biotech, etc. innovation. Furthermore, U.S. students seem to do fine on exams that require creativity (IMO, Put…

IMO and Putnum are comparing the best of each nation. This article is comparing the median of each nation. I wouldn't expect a strong correlation there. Both matter.

Putnam is just a US competition.

IMO is international. And while the US does well, we haven't won since the mid-90s. In that same period of time China has won it like 15 times.

And the last time the US won the ACM Programming Contest is probably equally as long. And there we typically will only place one or two schools in the top 10 at best (although it's not a collection of our best programmers -- it is by school).

Re: Here’s why other countries beat the U.S. in reading and math

#42

Post by guylhem »

Mz wrote: post #34
yummyfajitas wrote: post #24

In previous years these results have been driven primarily by African Americans and Hispanics (groups which don't exist to any significant degree in Europe or Asia) dragging the US average down. European Americans do very well when compared to European nations, and Asian Americans do well when compared to Asian nations (a bit worse in math, better in reading). http://super-economy.blogspot.com/2010/12/amazing-truth-a…

For me, that intuitively fits with other stats I have seen. IIRC, the U.S. was being reported as number six in the world for average income. But when broken down by ethnicity, white Americans placed number one. African Americans placed something like 49th. Hispanic Americans were a few notches lower than African Americans. (I hesitate to post this out of concern it sounds "racist". I am sure the reasons for this patt…

facts know no ethnicity

Re: Here’s why other countries beat the U.S. in reading and math

#43

Post by Mz »

guylhem wrote: post #42
Mz wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For me, that intuitively fits with other stats I have seen. IIRC, the U.S. was being reported as number six in the world for average income. But when broken down by ethnicity, white Americans placed number one. African Americans placed something like 49th. Hispanic Americans were a few notches lower than African Americans. (I hesitate to post this out of concern it sounds "racist". I am sure the reasons for this patt…

facts know no ethnicity

Maybe you should acquaint yourself with a book called "How to lie with statistics". In a biased environment, there are lots of ways to harm with innuendo (and similar) and then claim no such thing was intended while continuing to deepen the damage, often intentionally and maliciously, sometimes obliviously.

(But have an upvote. I am pretty sure your intent was to be supportive.)

Re: Here’s why other countries beat the U.S. in reading and math

#44

Post by pflats »

Nursie wrote: post #37
nfg wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> In previous years these results have been driven primarily by African Americans and Hispanics (groups which don't exist to any significant degree in Europe or Asia) There aren't many Hispanics in Europe...?

Errr.... no? I've never heard it used to refer to someone from actually from Spain.

Hispanic refers to Hispania, the Roman name for the Iberian Peninsula.

Thus, Spain and Portugal are the two original Hispanic cultures. Any culture that has Hispanic roots (i.e. most countries south of the US) is also Hispanic.

Anecdotally, a friend of mine was a first generation Spanish immigrant, and won a college scholarship aimed at Hispanic immigrants.

Re: Here’s why other countries beat the U.S. in reading and math

#45

Post by yummyfajitas »

raleec wrote: post #38
yummyfajitas wrote: post #24

In previous years these results have been driven primarily by African Americans and Hispanics (groups which don't exist to any significant degree in Europe or Asia) dragging the US average down. European Americans do very well when compared to European nations, and Asian Americans do well when compared to Asian nations (a bit worse in math, better in reading). http://super-economy.blogspot.com/2010/12/amazing-truth-a…

Just out of curiosity, what is the relevance of this observation? Are you saying that nations are irrelevant, and ethnicity is what really matters? Is this a subtle entreaty to focus the brunt of America's educational efforts on specific ethnic subgroups so that the entire nation can have better results? Instead of blindly downvoting, I really am interested in the point of this statement.

The point is that whatever trait drags the US average performance down probably lives in the student body rather than the school system.

If so, there isn't a lot we can do about it.

Re: Here’s why other countries beat the U.S. in reading and math

#46

Post by yummyfajitas »

raleec wrote: post #39
nfg wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> In previous years these results have been driven primarily by African Americans and Hispanics (groups which don't exist to any significant degree in Europe or Asia) There aren't many Hispanics in Europe...?

Oddly enough, there aren't that many (statistically significant) African Americans anywhere outside of America either... :)

Yes, I should have more carefully stated that the correct category for comparison would be non-immigrant Europeans of African descent. Which is a very small fraction of the population.

Re: Here’s why other countries beat the U.S. in reading and math

#47

Post by raleec »

pflats wrote: post #44
Nursie wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Errr.... no? I've never heard it used to refer to someone from actually from Spain.

Hispanic refers to Hispania, the Roman name for the Iberian Peninsula. Thus, Spain and Portugal are the two original Hispanic cultures. Any culture that has Hispanic roots (i.e. most countries south of the US) is also Hispanic. Anecdotally, a friend of mine was a first generation Spanish immigrant, and won a college scholarship aimed at Hispanic immigrants.

That's the point. Americans don't usually call Spaniards and Portuguese "Hispanic" any more then they call a Blond haired, blue eyed person born in America, but who's parents were born in South Africa "African American", which is to say rarely and usually in a comedic or anecdotal manner.

When he's referring to "Hispanics and African Americans" he is trying to refer to specific "racial" (insomuch as the concept exists) groups.

Re: Here’s why other countries beat the U.S. in reading and math

#48

Post by raleec »

yummyfajitas wrote: post #45
raleec wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just out of curiosity, what is the relevance of this observation? Are you saying that nations are irrelevant, and ethnicity is what really matters? Is this a subtle entreaty to focus the brunt of America's educational efforts on specific ethnic subgroups so that the entire nation can have better results? Instead of blindly downvoting, I really am interested in the point of this statement.

The point is that whatever trait drags the US average performance down probably lives in the student body rather than the school system. If so, there isn't a lot we can do about it.

Quite the pessimist!

So you're going w/ B) A subtle entreaty to focus the brunt of America's educational efforts on specific ethnic subgroups so that the entire nation can have better results. The upside is that it's possible that whatever procedural improvements are made will probably improve all of the student body, so it's a win-win!

Unless, of course, you're also positing that these sub-groups can't be taught??

Re: Here’s why other countries beat the U.S. in reading and math

#49

Post by theorique »

nfg wrote: post #35
yummyfajitas wrote: post #24

In previous years these results have been driven primarily by African Americans and Hispanics (groups which don't exist to any significant degree in Europe or Asia) dragging the US average down. European Americans do very well when compared to European nations, and Asian Americans do well when compared to Asian nations (a bit worse in math, better in reading). http://super-economy.blogspot.com/2010/12/amazing-truth-a…

> In previous years these results have been driven primarily by African Americans and Hispanics (groups which don't exist to any significant degree in Europe or Asia) There aren't many Hispanics in Europe...?

Spanish speaking whites in Spain aren't "Hispanic" in the American sense (ethnically indian or mestizo from Central and South American regions that were colonized by Spain).

Re: Here’s why other countries beat the U.S. in reading and math

#50

Post by pflats »

raleec wrote: post #47
pflats wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hispanic refers to Hispania, the Roman name for the Iberian Peninsula. Thus, Spain and Portugal are the two original Hispanic cultures. Any culture that has Hispanic roots (i.e. most countries south of the US) is also Hispanic. Anecdotally, a friend of mine was a first generation Spanish immigrant, and won a college scholarship aimed at Hispanic immigrants.

That's the point. Americans don't usually call Spaniards and Portuguese "Hispanic" any more then they call a Blond haired, blue eyed person born in America, but who's parents were born in South Africa "African American", which is to say rarely and usually in a comedic or anecdotal manner. When he's referring to "Hispanics and African Americans" he is trying to refer to specific "racial" (insomuch as the concept exist…

Yes, and nfg and I are trying to point out the downsides of using the term "Hispanic" when you mean "Latin American". The terms aren't interchangeable, even though people might try to treat them as such.

It might be an academic distinction to you, but it isn't to everybody. On the flip side of your example, while teaching in an inner city, I broke up a fight that started because a kid called a Haitian "African American".

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