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23andMe raises $50M, cuts price to $99, sets goal of 1M genotyped customers

blog.23andme.com

221–230 of 245 posts

Re: 23andMe raises $50M, cuts price to $99, sets goal of 1M genotyped customers

#221
post #190

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In which case they could make it a "voluntary" check. Like the shady employers that demand candidates' Facebook credentials.

Sure, and you say no. Just like you say no to the checkout clerk asking for your phone number when you make a purchase. Same way you so no to a cop when he asks to search your vehicle.

I don't disagree, and that is an easily imaginable scenario. But much like the cop they can still make things at best, uncomfortable, or at worst, nearly intolerable, for you. Creating that sort of de facto requirement is where the real problem lies (there's no legal obligation, but most of those vehicle search requests are performed anyway).

We already have employers requesting "voluntary" disclosure of health information (e.g., cholesterol check) as a condition of continuing group insurance coverage. Since it's illegal to require this information, they make it voluntary - but anyone who opts-out also opts-out of a hefty premium "discount". In reality, the "discounted" rate is closer to what employers would expect to pay for comparable group plans, while the non-discounted premium is high enough that 99% of employees line right up to have their blood drawn by the visiting nurse (conveniently stationed in the conference room down the hall).

Re: 23andMe raises $50M, cuts price to $99, sets goal of 1M genotyped customers

#223
post #213

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Not really. That's a theory and it is one that is hard to disprove experimentally. It is a much stronger theory than evolution This isn't right at all. The idea that our behaviors are shaped in ways that increase our fitness follows necessarily from the theory of evolution. If we believe that behaviors are influenced at all by our genes, then behaviors that are detrimental get weeded out. What's left over was more f…

> The idea that our behaviors are shaped in ways that increase our fitness follows necessarily from the theory of evolution. This is a misreading of evolution. To start with, we are not optimal. Not even locally optimal. No species is. Who is the optimal human? Is that person alive today? Second, you haven't considered timescale. You say "get weeded out". How long does that process take? Suppose all behaviors are dir…

Did you skip my second paragraph? I completely agree with your point that observing a behavior now does not imply that it is optimal.

Of course I don't believe there is a "Monarchy" gene any more than I believe there is a juggling gene. These behaviors are too complex to be determined by any given gene. But probabilities and predispositions come into play. Genes that influence behaviors that create predispositions for certain complex behaviors in certain environments will still have selective pressure exerted on that 'ultimate cause' gene.

Re: 23andMe raises $50M, cuts price to $99, sets goal of 1M genotyped customers

#224

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not about competition at the sperm level, gene quality as a whole. An individual is attempting to maximize its own genes. So a woman mating with a more masculine man will give her offspring the advantage of having "alpha" genes. But alpha men are not usually strong providers as they have their pick of women and so they spread their genes widely and divide their resources (or withhold them altogether). Thus maint…

Alpha Males are by definition strong providers, since they get preferential access to food. Alpha females are very picky about who they mate with too. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alpha_(ethology)

>Alpha Males are by definition strong providers, since they get preferential access to food

That doesn't follow. The male gets preferential access, but that doesn't mean he shares that access with his offspring. And even if he did, he would still have a larger than average number of offspring thus the amount each one gets may still be lower than the beta male's offerings to his own.

Of course in practice whether the alpha is the best provider is determined by how the community is organized. In a alpha-male-with-harem setup, the alpha is the best provider. In other arrangements this isn't always the case.

Re: 23andMe raises $50M, cuts price to $99, sets goal of 1M genotyped customers

#225
post #218

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> This is a misreading of evolution. To start with, we are not optimal. Not even locally optimal. No species is. Who is the optimal human? Is that person alive today? Optimal refers to having the highest probability of surviving and reproducing in the given environment. Since humans dominate the earth, we are more optimal than any other species of animal. From a genetics standpoint, the most "optimal" human would bea…

> Since humans dominate the earth, we are more optimal than any other species of animal. LOL! You are amazingly self-centered. Yes, humans are the most numerous mammal, with rats second. There's 50 billion chickens. By your definition, chickens are more optimal than humans. The nematode populations are measured in up to millions per square meter. With an estimated 1 million species of nematodes, the average nematode…

My definition of optimal was in terms of control over the environment. We could kill all 50 billion chickens if we wanted to.

If we want to redefine optimal to mean quantity of genes in the environment, then humans don't come out on top right now, but we could if we wanted to; I am sure that if we desired we could set up a lab to replicate more of our genetical material than any other species has in the environment.

Also, by this definition the most optimal human would theoretically attempt to turn all of the matter in the universe into copies of his/her genes.

A gene for a behavior that affects the number of sexual partners an animal has would likely have been selected for or against long before H sapiens evolved, thus enough iterations have occurred to weed out polygamy in mammals if it was a detrimental behavior. As for your ride-along-nose-picking thesis, I suppose it could be true. Nose picking only recently became a detrimental behavior in terms of evolutionary timescales.

Re: 23andMe raises $50M, cuts price to $99, sets goal of 1M genotyped customers

#226
post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Gender is determined genetically, and men and woman have different life expectancies. Does this mean you can't charge men and women different rates (all else being equal)?

Sex is determined genetically; Gender is determined socially and psychologically.

That is an ideological position, not a statement of fact.

Re: 23andMe raises $50M, cuts price to $99, sets goal of 1M genotyped customers

#227
post #218

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Since humans dominate the earth, we are more optimal than any other species of animal. LOL! You are amazingly self-centered. Yes, humans are the most numerous mammal, with rats second. There's 50 billion chickens. By your definition, chickens are more optimal than humans. The nematode populations are measured in up to millions per square meter. With an estimated 1 million species of nematodes, the average nematode…

My definition of optimal was in terms of control over the environment. We could kill all 50 billion chickens if we wanted to. If we want to redefine optimal to mean quantity of genes in the environment, then humans don't come out on top right now, but we could if we wanted to; I am sure that if we desired we could set up a lab to replicate more of our genetical material than any other species has in the environment.…

I figured you would say that about chickens. Basically, if you pick a definition which only works for humans, then sure, humans are going to be the winner. You might as well say that humans are the most optimal because they are the only ones to have put satellites into orbit around Mars. True, but not a useful species comparison.

Tell me, can you even apply your concept of "wanted to" to any other species? Which are the most successful fish species by this definition? Could any species of ant ever "want to" kill all humans? If they really wanted to, could they succeed?

As it stands then, your definition is useless, and propaganda for the supremacy of the humans species.

If we go extinct tomorrow - pretend this is the height of the Cold War and WW3 starts, with 50,000 nuclear weapons going off across the surface of the planet - then would an alien observer say that we were a successful species, because of our massive effect on the ecosystem, or would they say that we were a dismal species, which only lasted for a few hundred thousand years?

If we go extinct next year because of a hyper-virulent virus which kills only humans, would you say that that virus is more optimal than humans?

Your answers probably say more about you than provide a useful guide to how to measure evolutionary success.

As to the amount of genetic mutation present, that's just silly. There's 844 million tons of maize harvested each week, with plenty left as chaff. Assuming an average human mass of 65 kg and a population of 7 billion gives 460 million tons of people. Corn DNA is slightly larger than human DNA and plant cells tend to be smaller than animal cells. By the mass or count definition, corn is more successful than humans. There's 651 million tons of wheat harvest each year, but wheat's genome is 5x bigger than humans, so there's certainly more wheat DNA in the world than human DNA.

In any case, you're again too focused on the individual. Evolution only cares about genes, not individuals.

That's why your correct extrapolation - "the most optimal human would theoretically attempt to turn all of the matter in the universe into copies of his/her genes" - shows that that definition of optimality is invalid. Individuals aren't relevant. There's no guarantee that duplicated genes in cloned copies of a single individual are better at survival than having a mix of genes spread across a heterogenous population.

And your last paragraph shows that you don't understand the effect of mutation in evolution. All you are thinking of is the weeding out part.

Mutations occur all the time. Humans have about 0.003 mutations per genome per generation. For every 4000 births, there is a mutation. Few are improvements. Nearly all have no effect or are negative. Suppose one mutation has a really good advantage, and the only child from that person both 1) inherits the gene and 2) has a brand new nose picking mutation which confers a slight negative effect. Then that person's children will inherit both mutations. The really good one is going to spread, and the new, detrimental mutation will also spread -- even though it doesn't help improve survivability!

Re: 23andMe raises $50M, cuts price to $99, sets goal of 1M genotyped customers

#228

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The theory is that the woman would want the more hearty sperm, but also want the father who is more faithful and more able to provide. It's a sound evolutionary strategy.

Your version of evolution is pretty intelligent!

Not sure if sarcastic, but optimized behavior and intelligent behavior will often look similar.

Re: 23andMe raises $50M, cuts price to $99, sets goal of 1M genotyped customers

#229
post #227

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My definition of optimal was in terms of control over the environment. We could kill all 50 billion chickens if we wanted to. If we want to redefine optimal to mean quantity of genes in the environment, then humans don't come out on top right now, but we could if we wanted to; I am sure that if we desired we could set up a lab to replicate more of our genetical material than any other species has in the environment.…

I figured you would say that about chickens. Basically, if you pick a definition which only works for humans, then sure, humans are going to be the winner. You might as well say that humans are the most optimal because they are the only ones to have put satellites into orbit around Mars. True, but not a useful species comparison. Tell me, can you even apply your concept of "wanted to" to any other species? Which are…

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Re: 23andMe raises $50M, cuts price to $99, sets goal of 1M genotyped customers

#230

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This kind of rationalizing doesn't sound really serious. Does that not imply that women deceit their partners and are thus genetically predisposed liars? Also, if she has chosen a partner it means he (and his sperm) are better genetically. If anything, she should be avoiding others' (inferior) sperm.

The theory is that the woman would want the more hearty sperm, but also want the father who is more faithful and more able to provide. It's a sound evolutionary strategy.

You might want to give this a read: http://www.salon.com/1999/05/21/evolution/
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