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GCC steering committee announces AI policy

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Re: GCC steering committee announces AI policy

#61
But looking at the history of the free software movement, it seems like they should actually be embracing LLMs. It's interesting how differently people think.

The starting point of GNU was that Unix was expensive and costly for research labs, so they set out to build a free alternative that users could control from the ground up.

So if LLMs are useful, shouldn't we be building a free LLM ecosystem where users can run, study, and modify them, rather than letting a few companies control access to models, execution, environments, and data processing?

Of course, it's natural for organizations to drift from their original mission as they get older.

But judging by GNU's early history, the logic that:

1.LLMs themselves are bad because companies control them,

2.Writing code with AI isn't real programming,

3.Only human-written code is truly free.

This logic seems a bit flawed. After all, compilers, debuggers, and automated builds all automated tasks that humans used to do manually. And the GNU project itself created tools like Make and GDB so that programmers could work at a higher level.

If LLMs can reduce repetitive coding, documentation browsing, translation, test generation, and understanding legacy code, then that seems perfectly aligned with the next goals of free software. Making knowledge accessible to more people rather than keeping it locked up as tacit knowledge held by a few experts.

I guess when organizations grow large, they inevitably attract people who don't fully align with the original purpose

Re: GCC steering committee announces AI policy

#62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Do anti-LLM types expect to be vindicated in an orgy of copyright lawsuits that resets the industry back to 2022? What do people pushing expect to accomplish? You weren’t kidding, huh.

The GCC stance seems reasonable to me, where do we think the rage is coming from in comments like this? Off the cuff, I would be surprised if the GNU project embraced AI, so I'm confused that people think so strongly otherwise.

At face value a policy that essentially prohibits AI generated implementation seems entirely unreasonable to me.

Re: GCC steering committee announces AI policy

#63
post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Isn't there also a concern that an LLM may reproduce copyrighted code verbatim (or close enough), and the original author asserts their copyright?

This doesn't really happen by accident, especially where it's significant enough to constitute copyright infringement. And to my knowledge, there hasn't been a single lawsuit over this in the entire history of LLM-assisted coding.

> there hasn't been a single lawsuit over this in the entire history of LLM-assisted coding.

the "entire history of" is circa 3-4 years, which is very much a tiny period of time compared to normal legal system / copyright law stuff (IANAL).

Re: GCC steering committee announces AI policy

#64

Makes sense. The G in GCC is for GNU right, GNU as in Stallman-style Free Software. The GPL operates based on copyright licenses. If LLM output can not be copyrightable (as the courts seem to assert), then it can not be a significant part of Free Software.

Or if LLM output is copyrighted or sourced from copyrighted code - they can't take that risk, lest they face another "Google LLC v. Oracle America, Inc.". I think that lawsuit caused huge waves in the open source communities.

Re: GCC steering committee announces AI policy

#65

Makes sense. The G in GCC is for GNU right, GNU as in Stallman-style Free Software. The GPL operates based on copyright licenses. If LLM output can not be copyrightable (as the courts seem to assert), then it can not be a significant part of Free Software.

courts assert LLM can't HOLD copyright, as in it is not an entity that can own something and go to court over such ownership

nothing is said about you the user holding copyright over result of tool use

Re: GCC steering committee announces AI policy

#66

It's extremely disturbing to see literally all foundational projects succumbing to the slop-monster. It's only a matter of time now until the critical mass of hard to detect bugs accumulate in the project, making gcc completely unusable for any practical purpose. What's worse - those will be subtle bugs The kind you get from having a defective RAM chip, somewhere in the upper addresses. And if we can't trust the comp…

> succumbing to the slop-monster

So, in your view, banning vibecoded slop contributions is "succumbing to the slopmonster?"

> critical mass of hard to detect bugs accumulate in the project

Their announcement explicitly said LLMs are allowed for bug detection.

Re: GCC steering committee announces AI policy

#67
post #44

The 3 big ones, Linux, GCC and Git require a human to vouch/explain the work in question. Once the 3 big ones start using LLM to review/accept the work for speed reliability sake, who knows what is going to happen.

Already happened. My AI coded C compiler already bypassed gcc in less failures, compiles 10x faster, and with their new policy they'll fall far behind.

A bold claim with no sources to back it up.

Re: GCC steering committee announces AI policy

#68

The comments are worth it... the full spectrum of personalities and the hottest of takes. 10/10, would recommend to a bored friend.

Currently the top one has a nice kind of supervillain flair to it: > Denying it is denying human nature, Mr. Bond, and the gods tend to punish the hubris of denying nature.

It's nuts how strong the reactions are. This is a rather permissive policy: tests and changes 15 lines are fully allowed.

Re: GCC steering committee announces AI policy

#69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is it "anti-LLM" or is it anti "here's some code I don't understand that a machine generated for me kthxbye"? Code is not just code, it's also liability and trust.

You literally spend 99.999% og your time blindly trusting code - and that is only because I assume ymthat you write code yourself. For 99.999% of people, it is literally kthxbye on all code they execute on all their devices.

I don't think that's accurate. Until recently the code we rely on wasn't blindly trusted. People wrote and QA'd it. We may not have reviewed it personally, but that's one of the functions we outsource to software maintainers or "manufacturers".

I'm not "blindly trusting" code on my computing devices. I'm trusting the vendors / maintainers to do their job.

Until very recently the norm has been that the vast majority of code had human eyes and hands on it.

Edit:

The owners of those human eyes and hands had some type of accountability (either reputationally, in the case of free/open-source software, or occupationally, in the case of proprietary software).

The LLM has no accountability as to the output it generates.

The companies who make the LLMs also seem to have very little accountability, too. We've assumed a "blame the victim" stance when people use LLM-generated output in some inappropriate ways (legal briefs with "hallucinated" citations, articles "written" by LLMs). Whether that's the right location for accountability to be placed isn't for me to say, but that seems to be how it is.

I'm not sure that we're applying accountability to LLM-generated code in the same way we are for, say, the LLM-generated legal brief.

Re: GCC steering committee announces AI policy

#70
post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

He's correct though. You would need 3 extremely low probability events to all occur simultaneously for the concern to actually manifest. 1) Courts reverse their previous decisions and declare LLM generated code as belonging to LLM labs. 2) LLM labs decide to assert their copyright and sue open source projects. 3) They are able to prove that the code was generated by an LLM and not just any LLM but their LLM.

Isn't there also a concern that an LLM may reproduce copyrighted code verbatim (or close enough), and the original author asserts their copyright?

Not to mention the moral concern.

IP law (like a lot of other things) has been skewed toward the interests of business, even when that conflicts with fairness or societal good. For all its flaws (IMO), the free software movement tends to be principled. Just because something is legal doesn’t mean it’s right.

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