Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

NSF pilots 4-year PhDs with industry research placements

nsf.gov

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

61–70 of 85 posts

Re: NSF pilots 4-year PhDs with industry research placements

#61

Post by zmb_ »

math_dandy wrote: post #19

My wife did her mathematics PhD under an analogous structure in Germany where it’s fairly common. She was supervised by a professor at the University of Munich and a lab at Bosch, wrote and defended a thesis as usual. Employed in industry immediately after graduating. A great experience.

During my academic career I worked at a top German research university and advised multiple of these projects. On the surface it’s a good deal for everyone: the professor gets increased publication and graduate counts without having to pay for it, the company gets a top student working on their research problem very cheaply, and the student gets a PhD, an employment contract, and often a visa.

The reality was unfortunately often not so great. What would happened is that the student would get 3-4 year contract with 50% allocation to the PhD research in addition to normal employment duties. That is not enough to graduate if the professor has high standards.

As a result, the student would transition to full time employment after the 3-4 years, try to work on research in the evenings, and give up after some time. Or they would graduate with a very low quality degree (I saw students graduate with a 0 or 1 publications and a very thin dissertation) that has practically no value to anyone beyond providing the student with a Dr. title.

In the end I was actively advising students against it, and to just go into industry with a masters degree or find a fully academy funded PhD position if they are serious about research.

Re: NSF pilots 4-year PhDs with industry research placements

#62

Post by dnautics »

mathisfun123 wrote: post #29
dnautics wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

sometimes an institution will give an ms as a consolation prize for time spent not being able to finish a phd [0]. in those cases they can be upwards of 5 years, but they certainly aren't industry driven [0] often a leadership or personality failure of the PI

Why do people do this kind of "well actually" thing? Yes you're correct but it has nothing to do with whether the degree itself is intended for that.

because its good to have people not be misled by absolute statements like this "No MS lasts 3-4 years" that are simply incorrect.

do you enjoy being a source of misinformation?

Re: NSF pilots 4-year PhDs with industry research placements

#63

Post by parpfish »

pudgywalsh wrote: post #55
moshun wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While I understand the upside, the reality of why it’s being pursued in the United States is that this is intended to drive academia into an advanced version of a trade school.

There is a non-insignificant segment of the population that would have been better suited and employed as painters or HVAC technicians than for their chosen careers. Some software developers (and 80% of the city of Portland) would also fall into this category. The world has a surplus of PhDs opening cupcake shops.

i think there are a lot of college-educated folks that would love to switch into a trade, but there are cultural barriers to starting such a career. a not-insignificant number of tradespeople have been taught to see college as the enemy and college-educated folks as soft, coddled people with poor work ethic. if you showed up at a job site after getting a four-year liberal arts degree, you'd be met with lots of mocking and "oh, you thnk you're better than me?" defensive posturing.

Re: NSF pilots 4-year PhDs with industry research placements

#66

Post by dnautics »

smelendez wrote: post #38
mathisfun123 wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why do people do this kind of "well actually" thing? Yes you're correct but it has nothing to do with whether the degree itself is intended for that.

I mean, how common is a terminal master’s program in STEM fields? I imagine there are departments where it’s more common to get a master’s by dropping out of the PhD program early than through any other path. Especially for people with a bachelor’s in the same field.

there are departments where it's the only way to get a masters, and it's nothing to do with foreign students paying, and i suspect more to do with lawsuit evasion for exploitative working cobditions and mutual nondisparagement

Re: NSF pilots 4-year PhDs with industry research placements

#67

Post by prpl »

Brystephor wrote: post #34
moshun wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While I understand the upside, the reality of why it’s being pursued in the United States is that this is intended to drive academia into an advanced version of a trade school.

That sounds like an excellent thing based on that last sentence. Anecdotally, I hear people talk about trade school as being much more practical compared to the majority of traditional 4 year degrees. So I am interpreting a "move towards trade school" as an increase in practicality and therefore utility to the student.

My impression is that many of the indian engineering schools are some form of trade school and it shows. A lot of people are very good at churning out things, but they vastly prefer to use well defined tools for their trade and do a lot of work impassionately. Taking the creative path or even reflecting on failures isn’t natural.

On the other side of things, you have PhDs coming out of the US with too many ideas and the inability to deal with basics such as sprint planning and CI/CD.

Not sure if this will help, but I would love it for the Colleges of Sciences peoples instead of a postdoc.

Re: NSF pilots 4-year PhDs with industry research placements

#68

Post by raphman »

Beijinger wrote: post #27
math_dandy wrote: post #19

My wife did her mathematics PhD under an analogous structure in Germany where it’s fairly common. She was supervised by a professor at the University of Munich and a lab at Bosch, wrote and defended a thesis as usual. Employed in industry immediately after graduating. A great experience.

This is just because of the PhD inflation in Germany. It has little scientific value.

a) No. b) It depends.

I know the German system quite well and know people who did their PhD in industry, people who did their PhD in an externally funded research project, and people who pursued a more self-directed PhD while working as a research and teaching assistant.

I don't think that there is a general 'PhD inflation' in Germany (though there are some disciplines with this problem). It is well understood by most PhD students that an academic career is the exception, not the rule. Most of them choose to do a PhD because they like the academic environment and want to learn more. Most PhDs go on to work in industry research labs, science-adjacent roles (e.g., museums) or as group leaders in tech companies. There is sufficient need for PhDs in most fields.

Industry-embedded PhD students are required to meet the same criteria as other PhD students. They also publish their research at the same conferences - but it is often more on the applied side. One could argue that such research has "little scientific value" - but so does most research.

The most important outcome of a PhD is not the list of publications but a person who deeply understands a domain, knows how to critically analyze a problem, and finds good solutions. Doing a PhD 'in industry' also allows you to do this. And it gives you a foot in the door at that company.

FWIW, many PhD students I knew, e.g. at BMW, complained a little bit about the side-projects they were expected to do, or the bureaucracy at such large companies. And, because you don't have to do any teaching and rarely supervise undergrads in industry labs, you are less qualified for an academic career than PhD students who work at the university.

Re: NSF pilots 4-year PhDs with industry research placements

#69

Post by mathisfun123 »

dnautics wrote: post #62
mathisfun123 wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why do people do this kind of "well actually" thing? Yes you're correct but it has nothing to do with whether the degree itself is intended for that.

because its good to have people not be misled by absolute statements like this "No MS lasts 3-4 years" that are simply incorrect. do you enjoy being a source of misinformation?

What percentage of all MS awarded would you wager are intended to be 3-4 years?

Re: NSF pilots 4-year PhDs with industry research placements

#70

Post by valentyn235 »

I did my undergrad (BSc) in the US and then came to Switzerland for grad school. In some ways, this initiative seems to split the difference between these two systems.

In the US, I've seen people start PhD programs with a BSc degree and take 6-8 years. I've encountered many engineering companies at job fairs who said that for them a PhD is a disqualifying factor for many positions, because the experience is not relevant but they would need to (or felt obliged to, for whatever reason) pay extra for this degree.

In Switzerland, people would do a 1.5-2 year MSc degree after their BSc. This would still be mostly classes with one 6-month-long research / technical project. This was the expectation for many technical jobs. Some then did a PhD, which would take 3-4 years and required to have a MSc already to apply. Many of these projects (at least in my field) were sponsored by the industry.

Post reply on HN