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NSF pilots 4-year PhDs with industry research placements

nsf.gov

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Re: NSF pilots 4-year PhDs with industry research placements

#21

Post by oivey »

lokar wrote: post #11
TimorousBestie wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> There isn't. My coworkers holding such degrees would beg to differ. > And if you are trying to snarkily describe an MS, then most MS programs are too short. It wasn’t snarky, it was a listing of common points between the two. I don’t see what distinguishes this from a MS. A year still isn’t enough time to write a doctoral-level thesis, so if the I-PhD is supposed to represent a “longer MS” then it’s still insuffici…

Where does an MS take more then 2 years?

I guess people doing night school maybe? That’s pretty clearly not what this is.

Re: NSF pilots 4-year PhDs with industry research placements

#22

Post by mathisfun123 »

TimorousBestie wrote: post #4

Very perplexing. There’s already a 3-4 year advanced degree in the United States with an optional thesis component that companies in relevant industries can intervene in and direct if they so desire. So why are they calling it a doctorate? I don’t see the point. It’s not like the NSF under this administration is particularly fond of STEM doctorates. I’m open to any theories about what the real point of this is.

> There’s already a 3-4 year advanced degree in the United States with an optional thesis component that companies in relevant industries can intervene in and direct if they so desire.

You're making this up as you go. No MS lasts 3-4 years, almost all MS theses are book reports/unpublished because the student is primarily attending classes, almost none are directed by industry (see points 1 and 2).

Re: NSF pilots 4-year PhDs with industry research placements

#24

Post by dnautics »

mathisfun123 wrote: post #22
TimorousBestie wrote: post #4

Very perplexing. There’s already a 3-4 year advanced degree in the United States with an optional thesis component that companies in relevant industries can intervene in and direct if they so desire. So why are they calling it a doctorate? I don’t see the point. It’s not like the NSF under this administration is particularly fond of STEM doctorates. I’m open to any theories about what the real point of this is.

> There’s already a 3-4 year advanced degree in the United States with an optional thesis component that companies in relevant industries can intervene in and direct if they so desire. You're making this up as you go. No MS lasts 3-4 years, almost all MS theses are book reports/unpublished because the student is primarily attending classes, almost none are directed by industry (see points 1 and 2).

sometimes an institution will give an ms as a consolation prize for time spent not being able to finish a phd [0]. in those cases they can be upwards of 5 years, but they certainly aren't industry driven

[0] often a leadership or personality failure of the PI

Re: NSF pilots 4-year PhDs with industry research placements

#25

Post by a_bonobo »

TimorousBestie wrote: post #4

Very perplexing. There’s already a 3-4 year advanced degree in the United States with an optional thesis component that companies in relevant industries can intervene in and direct if they so desire. So why are they calling it a doctorate? I don’t see the point. It’s not like the NSF under this administration is particularly fond of STEM doctorates. I’m open to any theories about what the real point of this is.

It is ideology. It's very obvious the current US government thinks that universities are a waste of money, and that industry is where everything happens. This industry PhD shuffles money from the university's pockets into industry pockets. It's in line with the recent shrinking of PhD visa lengths in the US (from technically-infinite-but-usually-6-to-7-years to 4 years)

Re: NSF pilots 4-year PhDs with industry research placements

#26

Post by moshun »

math_dandy wrote: post #19

My wife did her mathematics PhD under an analogous structure in Germany where it’s fairly common. She was supervised by a professor at the University of Munich and a lab at Bosch, wrote and defended a thesis as usual. Employed in industry immediately after graduating. A great experience.

While I understand the upside, the reality of why it’s being pursued in the United States is that this is intended to drive academia into an advanced version of a trade school.

Re: NSF pilots 4-year PhDs with industry research placements

#27

Post by Beijinger »

math_dandy wrote: post #19

My wife did her mathematics PhD under an analogous structure in Germany where it’s fairly common. She was supervised by a professor at the University of Munich and a lab at Bosch, wrote and defended a thesis as usual. Employed in industry immediately after graduating. A great experience.

This is just because of the PhD inflation in Germany. It has little scientific value.

Re: NSF pilots 4-year PhDs with industry research placements

#29

Post by mathisfun123 »

dnautics wrote: post #24
mathisfun123 wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> There’s already a 3-4 year advanced degree in the United States with an optional thesis component that companies in relevant industries can intervene in and direct if they so desire. You're making this up as you go. No MS lasts 3-4 years, almost all MS theses are book reports/unpublished because the student is primarily attending classes, almost none are directed by industry (see points 1 and 2).

sometimes an institution will give an ms as a consolation prize for time spent not being able to finish a phd [0]. in those cases they can be upwards of 5 years, but they certainly aren't industry driven [0] often a leadership or personality failure of the PI

Why do people do this kind of "well actually" thing? Yes you're correct but it has nothing to do with whether the degree itself is intended for that.

Re: NSF pilots 4-year PhDs with industry research placements

#30

Post by linguae »

AsyncBanana wrote: post #23

I don't love the increasing move towards industry research instead of traditional academia. It is just going to mean more closely-held, proprietary advancements.

Additionally, as a former industry researcher myself who now teaches at a community college, there is less research freedom in industry, especially with very free places like 1970-era Bell Labs and Xerox PARC half a century in the rear view mirror. Focused industry research is definitely valuable, but there seems to be fewer places in modern society that allow a researcher to be driven primarily by curiosity.
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