Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Stop Killing the Internet: No Digital ID and No Age Verification

citizens-initiative.europa.eu

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

271–280 of 313 posts

Re: Stop Killing the Internet: No Digital ID and No Age Verification

#271

Post by vid »

account42 wrote: post #240
vid wrote: post #99

I'm glad they mention privacy preserving and being voluntary. It's possible to make digital ID that allows selectively revealing attributes without identity, and that could solve problems like bots, socketpuppets, etc along with reasonable age-gating. It could be an ideal internet if it's properly applied. The problem is it's difficult to verify all the promises are being kept, and if they're not it instantly becomes…

> I'm glad they mention privacy preserving and being voluntary. It's possible to make digital ID that allows selectively revealing attributes without identity Not without either being able to trivially let others use your proofs OR ending open computing. There is no zero knowledge proof about the slab of meat sitting in front of the screen.

That's what "The problem is it's difficult to verify all the promises are being kept, and if they're not it instantly becomes a true dystopia" is about.

Re: Stop Killing the Internet: No Digital ID and No Age Verification

#272

Post by forgetfreeman »

hnav wrote: post #209
forgetfreeman wrote: post #196

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So having established one would have to institute I'm-hiding-from-at-least-two-sovereign-governments-that-are-actively-hunting-me levels of OPSEC to even stand a chance of avoiding being thoroughly fingerprinted I'm fairly confident in my point is proven here. I don't see anyone proposing to gut Meta and Google's business models, ban data brokerages, or any of a myriad other possible things that would at least in the…

You're attacking a strawman, there are definitely alternatives such as mandating a protocol for describing content that parent-controlled content policies in user agents would key off of. I mean even today you can just ban instagram on your kid's phone. Regarding futility of trying to preserve privacy, I'm not sure if you're aware that Apple doesn't have much of a standalone service business and it's widely deploying…

Your brand loyalty might be clouding your vision here:

https://www.inc.com/jason-aten/apple-just-traded-your-privac...

Re: Stop Killing the Internet: No Digital ID and No Age Verification

#273

Post by [deleted] »

account42 wrote: post #259
perching_aix wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Having a digital ID does not obviate that (in principle), thanks to zero-knowledge schemes. To my understanding then, the issue is that the EU's implementation only has a ZK-based solution in the plans so far. But then this initiative says "No Digital ID", not "No Auto-Deanonymizable Digital ID", so...

Zero knowledge proofs are not the magic fairy dust that you claim they are. They let you prove that you have some information without disclosing that information but that doesn't become a viable Digital ID scheme without putting other things like trusted computing so you can't give the "I'm over 18" token to literally everyone.

[deleted]

Re: Stop Killing the Internet: No Digital ID and No Age Verification

#274

Post by perching_aix »

account42 wrote: post #266
perching_aix wrote: post #4

I haven't considered this before with SKG, but if this progresses, it means the EU parliament may choose to take action based on an initiative that potentially only a vocal minority supports [0], while coming across as if they were simply following the will of the people. Not sure how I feel about that, sounds kind of problematic in retrospect. Especially since there's no mechanism for triggering EU-wide referendums…

> I haven't considered this before with SKG, but if this progresses, it means the EU parliament may choose to take action based on an initiative that potentially only a vocal minority supports [0], while coming across as if they were simply following the will of the people. What, you don't think that's how things work already except "the people" whose will is being followed is an even smaller group. Is political acti…

So I'm correct, but this works out in your favor so it's all good?

I can ask demagogue questions too you know.

Re: Stop Killing the Internet: No Digital ID and No Age Verification

#275

Post by b0rtb0rt »

account42 wrote: post #257
monomial wrote: post #186

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't really understand this trope and I grew up in a tiny town. Why not start a band or make movies with your friends? Build model airplanes, explore some creeks or forests. Not to say I didn't smoke and drink as well but why should that be more likely to be one's outlet in a small town with few commercial consumer experiences?

All of that is a lot harder to do if you have to start from first principles because you have no place to look up how its done or talk to others who are already doing it.

you need to look up how to explore the woods outside your house?

Re: Stop Killing the Internet: No Digital ID and No Age Verification

#276

Post by [deleted] »

account42 wrote: post #259
perching_aix wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Having a digital ID does not obviate that (in principle), thanks to zero-knowledge schemes. To my understanding then, the issue is that the EU's implementation only has a ZK-based solution in the plans so far. But then this initiative says "No Digital ID", not "No Auto-Deanonymizable Digital ID", so...

Zero knowledge proofs are not the magic fairy dust that you claim they are. They let you prove that you have some information without disclosing that information but that doesn't become a viable Digital ID scheme without putting other things like trusted computing so you can't give the "I'm over 18" token to literally everyone.

[deleted]

Re: Stop Killing the Internet: No Digital ID and No Age Verification

#277

Post by [deleted] »

account42 wrote: post #259
perching_aix wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Having a digital ID does not obviate that (in principle), thanks to zero-knowledge schemes. To my understanding then, the issue is that the EU's implementation only has a ZK-based solution in the plans so far. But then this initiative says "No Digital ID", not "No Auto-Deanonymizable Digital ID", so...

Zero knowledge proofs are not the magic fairy dust that you claim they are. They let you prove that you have some information without disclosing that information but that doesn't become a viable Digital ID scheme without putting other things like trusted computing so you can't give the "I'm over 18" token to literally everyone.

[deleted]

Re: Stop Killing the Internet: No Digital ID and No Age Verification

#278

Post by perching_aix »

account42 wrote: post #259
perching_aix wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Having a digital ID does not obviate that (in principle), thanks to zero-knowledge schemes. To my understanding then, the issue is that the EU's implementation only has a ZK-based solution in the plans so far. But then this initiative says "No Digital ID", not "No Auto-Deanonymizable Digital ID", so...

Zero knowledge proofs are not the magic fairy dust that you claim they are. They let you prove that you have some information without disclosing that information but that doesn't become a viable Digital ID scheme without putting other things like trusted computing so you can't give the "I'm over 18" token to literally everyone.

Unfortunately, it'd appear that I understand this fine. See my other comment that was already there in this subthread an hour before you posted: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=49096731

Before you further grant me any other imagined positions and misunderstandings, I actually do not happen to think that digital IDs, as currently conceived or with ZK, are better than pussy either. I just don't find them immediately objectionable. This is possible through the magic of not having a settled position on them just yet, as it's clear I have stuff to catch up on, as I'm not from the anglosphere (and thus Orwell's works are not culturally indoctrinated into me), and as my two options to learn more are:

- word salads published by various impossible to follow EU bodies

- people who think having an ID alone is like, literally 1984, let alone a digital one, and will "discuss" the subject accordingly

Somehow, this keeps me at more than an arm's distance away.

It's also generally unconvincing to keep reading about how xyz is not possible, from the people who would very blatantly object xyz even if it was entirely possible.

Re: Stop Killing the Internet: No Digital ID and No Age Verification

#279

Post by LtWorf »

fc417fc802 wrote: post #137
josalhor wrote: post #119

I want the right to not be identified. I also want the right to SELF identify . I think the toxic culture of the internet has happened in part because anonymity leads to lack of accountability. I want to self identify and interact with other people who also self identify. The cost of running LLM botnets is going down. I cannot imagine how the next cycle of elections is going to be like on all countries. I understand…

> I think the toxic culture of the internet has happened in part because anonymity leads to lack of accountability. It is trivial to demonstrate that this is incorrect (despite sounding plausible). There's plenty of incredibly toxic behavior to be found all over facebook. Among other considerations it's worth noting that most of the usual social feedback mechanisms are missing from typical online interactions. > The…

A family member of mine posted several times on facebook explaining how the police should just shoot and kill thieves in the streets.

He posts with his real name and real photo.

Re: Stop Killing the Internet: No Digital ID and No Age Verification

#280

Post by [deleted] »

bigfishrunning wrote: post #248
mothballed wrote: post #155

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> it's only legal to have alcohol delivered by the Pennsylvania Liquor Control Board. It is not legal to order directly from producers. You are full of shit. Opinion safely discarded. https://www.pa.gov/agencies/lcb/shop-wine-spirits/direct-win... >The laws do indeed vary by state. I am not disputing that. I am disputing that "most US states, they require the delivery driver to recheck the ID in person" (the original…

While I admit I was wrong, I can say that I didn't actually express any opinion, so there was nothing for you to discard. I do appreciate the rude reply though, thank you for making the environment here so pleasant.

[deleted]
Post reply on HN