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The Fabled Flatbreads of Uzbekistan (2015)

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Re: The Fabled Flatbreads of Uzbekistan (2015)

#81

Post by RajT88 »

oa335 wrote: post #63
RajT88 wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

https://www.neilsberg.com/insights/lists/uzbek-population-in... Figuring some fudge factor too. It could be low - it's hard to find numbers for nationality counts for central Asians broken down by state.

that websites estimates are definitely too low - e.g. there are definitely more than 40 Uzbek people in Chicago... I've been to 3 uzbek restaurants in Chicago proper myself.

Broadly (in another comment I made) I think I've made sense of it. Regardless of the real population, it's probably not just the Uzbek population sustaining these places. That most likely wouldn't be viable.

My wife's restaurant for example targets a nationality that is wayyyy more numerous (not Mexicans; that'd be easy enough), and it's tough for us to stay profitable.

Re: The Fabled Flatbreads of Uzbekistan (2015)

#83

Post by iLemming »

FpUser wrote: post #6

I spent about a year of my life in Uzbekistan. Food there is pure heaven

Uzbek cuisine is a fascinating phenomenon because its traditions were shaped by interesting geography, climate and history. It is a double-land-locked country, therefore the lack of seafood and saltwater plants forced them to get inventive. Luckily, the agricultural heaven, which the region was in until the Soviet state's imbecilic decisions killed the Aral Sea, provided enormous variety. Imagine, the nature there even not too long ago was nothing short of amazing. There were species of tigers that went extinct in the 1970s (!) and freshwater fish that had existed nowhere else.

The geopolitical placement of the region made it a desirable target for invasions, and indeed that happened many times - Persians, Greeks/Macedonians, Seleucids, Greco-Bactrians, Scythians, Xiongnu, Huns, Arabs, Mongols, Chinese, Russians, etc. And every invader brought their cultural norms, and food traditions. Forced deportation of Koreans (by Stalin) added more to the pile. Fun fact: "traditional" Korean dishes of Central Asia have no equivalents in actual Korean cuisine, because people couldn't grow or find the ingredients endemic to the Korean peninsula, so they had to make their own, unique recipes.

Uzbeks take enormous pride in their cuisine and it is ingrained in their DNA - they can easily justify prepping a dish for weeks, then cooking it for over twenty hours, absolutely intending it to be devoured in less than fifteen minutes. That is the [uzbek] way.

Re: The Fabled Flatbreads of Uzbekistan (2015)

#84

Post by goosejuice »

vector_spaces wrote: post #42
netsharc wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I guess if you're a migrant, an ethnic restaurant (is that term politically correct?) is one of the most obvious businesses you can start. The Thai government used to sponsor (not sure if they still do) Thai diaspora who want to open a restaurant in a foreign country, it was their way to market the country and attract tourists.

OK, I'll bite. In this particular case I personally would have said "a restaurant of your national cuisine" or even omit the adjective altogether since it's somewhat obvious from the preceding conversation what you mean. My main qualm with this usage -- aside from being dated -- is that all cuisines are ethnic, but singling out the hypothetical migrant's as such implies that it is particularly ethnic. So in this sens…

Here ethnic cuisine more or less means regional cuisine, where the region is outside of the speaker's own cultural identity. It goes beyond national, which is very broad. Therefore I think it's a fairly useful descriptor.

For example Oaxacan and TexMex are ethnically Mexican, but seen as regional within their borders by the respective nations. There's deeper indigenous roots there too. Food traditions of the Jewish diaspora can't be said to be Israeli cuisine. Things that start as regionally unique become seen as ethnic over time: I dunno like rocky mountain oysters, fish and chips, buffalo wings, as they become more intertwined with the culture of those people and that culture is exported.

Ethnicity was coined to avoid the racial connotations but in the US, ethnic studies brought it right back. If one wishes to avoid the word here maybe cultural is probably the best substitute but still a bit too narrow. You'll also see Global/International/Continental/Intercontinental as well, much like in music.. but I think that misses the point too.

Re: The Fabled Flatbreads of Uzbekistan (2015)

#85

Post by iLemming »

rickydroll wrote: post #74

Okay, how can I get a sampler pack of all those breads delivered here in the States?

Honest answer? This is not simple, because to authentically bake that kind of bread, you'd need the "tandir". No, it's not like Punjabi or Indian traditional tandoors, those are similar yet different. Uzbek one's pronounced similar to "thunder" and it's made of special clay, you really can't order one in some pottery shop here in the US.

Some restaurateurs have managed to ship fragmented oven pieces all the way from there to clay them back together here. I reckon only a few authentic tandirs exist in the West, and most of them are on the east coast.

Your best bet for getting bona fide Uzbek bread is to ask someone traveling from Uzbekistan to bring you some. Anything else is not guaranteed not to be a pale attempt at a replica. And ask natives, not tourists without a clue - there's a wide variety - Samarkand and Tashkent bread can differ in size, tenderness, texture and taste, Ferghana valley recipes may include goat milk products that may completely change everything about it.

Re: The Fabled Flatbreads of Uzbekistan (2015)

#86

Post by vector_spaces »

goosejuice wrote: post #84
vector_spaces wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

OK, I'll bite. In this particular case I personally would have said "a restaurant of your national cuisine" or even omit the adjective altogether since it's somewhat obvious from the preceding conversation what you mean. My main qualm with this usage -- aside from being dated -- is that all cuisines are ethnic, but singling out the hypothetical migrant's as such implies that it is particularly ethnic. So in this sens…

Here ethnic cuisine more or less means regional cuisine, where the region is outside of the speaker's own cultural identity. It goes beyond national, which is very broad. Therefore I think it's a fairly useful descriptor. For example Oaxacan and TexMex are ethnically Mexican, but seen as regional within their borders by the respective nations. There's deeper indigenous roots there too. Food traditions of the Jewish d…

Too bad. I considered pre-empting this exact response, and I did not, so here we are!

The term "national" doesn't simply mean "having to do with a nation state".

I promise that I do not mean to be condescending with this, but you can verify in Merriam-Webster's entry for "nationality" which is referenced by the entry for "national", or also the Wikipedia article on "national cuisine". The Merriam-Webster entries specifically give examples showing that my usage encompasses the examples you gave.

The terms "ethnicity" and "ethnic" are not problematic per se. There are a few reasons people object to usages such as "ethnic cuisine", one of which I mentioned in the comment you are replying to.

Re: The Fabled Flatbreads of Uzbekistan (2015)

#87

Post by rickydroll »

iLemming wrote: post #85
rickydroll wrote: post #74

Okay, how can I get a sampler pack of all those breads delivered here in the States?

Honest answer? This is not simple, because to authentically bake that kind of bread, you'd need the "tandir". No, it's not like Punjabi or Indian traditional tandoors, those are similar yet different. Uzbek one's pronounced similar to "thunder" and it's made of special clay, you really can't order one in some pottery shop here in the US. Some restaurateurs have managed to ship fragmented oven pieces all the way from…

Darn, I was afraid I would have to make a trip just for the food. Although maybe I could turn to a food import business.

When I was in Scandinavia a few years ago, I discovered their sausages served in, I think, what is called a French roll (a tube of bread). I briefly considered setting up a food truck called "Scandi Dogs," selling these sausages in the same rolls as they serve in Europe with a side of vanilla ice cream dipped in salted licorice. And yes, that licorice ice cream combination is great once you get past the salt lick impact of the first bite.

Re: The Fabled Flatbreads of Uzbekistan (2015)

#88

Post by iLemming »

rickydroll wrote: post #87
iLemming wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Honest answer? This is not simple, because to authentically bake that kind of bread, you'd need the "tandir". No, it's not like Punjabi or Indian traditional tandoors, those are similar yet different. Uzbek one's pronounced similar to "thunder" and it's made of special clay, you really can't order one in some pottery shop here in the US. Some restaurateurs have managed to ship fragmented oven pieces all the way from…

Darn, I was afraid I would have to make a trip just for the food. Although maybe I could turn to a food import business. When I was in Scandinavia a few years ago, I discovered their sausages served in, I think, what is called a French roll (a tube of bread). I briefly considered setting up a food truck called "Scandi Dogs," selling these sausages in the same rolls as they serve in Europe with a side of vanilla ice c…

> I would have to make a trip just for the food

Totally. There are too many dishes to count that don't exist and unlikely ever will outside of that country. Traditional sausage Qazi is a must try; Naryin is a dish with customs tied specifically to Tashkent region - they usually don't make it in Samarkand, Bukhara or in the valley. Sumalak gets cooked in huge pots simmering whole night - women take turns to stir it, while singing songs and gossiping. Osh-palov is something worth waking up at 5AM just to go try it first thing in the morning. Khonim is better than any lasagna you ever had. Samosas have so many different shapes and flavors. Kebabs, oh my - that merits its own post. There are traditional cheese balls, for some reason, some westerners love them like crazy - "best thing to have with beers", some find them unsavory. There are different kinds of soups, dozen types of salads, pastries, deserts.

Besides traditional Uzbek - Persian/Turkic dishes, there are many ethic communities with their own unique cuisine, e.g. some Armenian dishes are made only there and nowhere else. Azerbaijani chicken gets marinated in special onion sauce for days, making the meat heavenly tender. Uzbek Koreans have their own traditions and Korean dishes that you can't find in the Korean peninsula itself, which confuses Taskent-visiting Koreans.

Anyway, culinary tourism to Central Asia is an absolute hit these days. It was difficult and even unsafe to travel before, when it was under harsh dictatorship. The place is still authoritarian, but much more relaxed. Just make sure not to bring any drugs, weed included - and you'll be fine.

Re: The Fabled Flatbreads of Uzbekistan (2015)

#89

Post by goosejuice »

vector_spaces wrote: post #86
goosejuice wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Here ethnic cuisine more or less means regional cuisine, where the region is outside of the speaker's own cultural identity. It goes beyond national, which is very broad. Therefore I think it's a fairly useful descriptor. For example Oaxacan and TexMex are ethnically Mexican, but seen as regional within their borders by the respective nations. There's deeper indigenous roots there too. Food traditions of the Jewish d…

Too bad. I considered pre-empting this exact response, and I did not, so here we are! The term "national" doesn't simply mean "having to do with a nation state". I promise that I do not mean to be condescending with this, but you can verify in Merriam-Webster's entry for "nationality" which is referenced by the entry for "national", or also the Wikipedia article on "national cuisine". The Merriam-Webster entries spec…

It mostly does, yes. Nation is political. National cuisine and the claim of certain dishes, if official, are driven by government. See gastronationalism.

You won't find Persian national cuisine. Iran however, yes, and it's mostly ethnically Persian. You'll find food traditions of other ethnic groups in Iran as well that aren't Persian. Iranian cuisine encompasses all of that within a political border.

Re: The Fabled Flatbreads of Uzbekistan (2015)

#90

Post by vector_spaces »

goosejuice wrote: post #89
vector_spaces wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Too bad. I considered pre-empting this exact response, and I did not, so here we are! The term "national" doesn't simply mean "having to do with a nation state". I promise that I do not mean to be condescending with this, but you can verify in Merriam-Webster's entry for "nationality" which is referenced by the entry for "national", or also the Wikipedia article on "national cuisine". The Merriam-Webster entries spec…

It mostly does, yes. Nation is political. National cuisine and the claim of certain dishes, if official, are driven by government. See gastronationalism. You won't find Persian national cuisine. Iran however, yes, and it's mostly ethnically Persian. You'll find food traditions of other ethnic groups in Iran as well that aren't Persian. Iranian cuisine encompasses all of that within a political border.

I think you are conflating senses of the word, or rather you are defaulting to a very specific usage. There's the usage "Iranian national cuisine" which as you say is inherently political in nature because we mean "nation" in a civic and territorial sense, subsuming e.g. Persian, Azeri, Kurd cuisines, among others. There may be objections to specific inclusions or exclusions as we are considering Iran as a civic and political entity with borders, as you say

But it's perfectly fine to refer to "Kurdish national cuisine" or Persian national cuisine or Azeri national cuisine even in the absence of any nation state. So I'm using the term in an ethnocultural sense, not in the sense of something sanctioned by a nation state or a political entity. See also black nationalism or Kurdish nationalism -- no state is required here. You have political mobilisation around an ethnocultural designation rather than a government

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