Live data from Hacker News

San Francisco: Don't Fall for Industry Defense of Surveillance Pricing

eff.org

21–30 of 94 posts

Re: San Francisco: Don't Fall for Industry Defense of Surveillance Pricing

#21
post #11

Like most people, surveillance pricing feels gross to me. But I think we need to separate two things: Surveillance pricing is a combination of (a) price discrimination and (b) surveillance. If it were up to me, I'd probably give people much stronger legal rights to control their personal information, which would in turn decrease "surveillance". But I haven't seen a convincing argument to ban price discrimination. The…

>For example: Pharmaceuticals are often priced much low in poor countries. That's price discrimination. (You could think of it as a primitive form of surveillance pricing.) But if that were banned, pharmaceutical companies wouldn't lower prices for everyone. That would destroy almost all their revenue which comes from high prices in rich countries. Instead, they'd charge rich-country prices to everyone, and most people in poor countries would simply have to go without. That seems like it would be pure harm.

Well you simply make it illegal to charge more than the poor country prices and, bare with me here, you also make it illegal to go bankrupt.

Re: San Francisco: Don't Fall for Industry Defense of Surveillance Pricing

#22
post #11

Like most people, surveillance pricing feels gross to me. But I think we need to separate two things: Surveillance pricing is a combination of (a) price discrimination and (b) surveillance. If it were up to me, I'd probably give people much stronger legal rights to control their personal information, which would in turn decrease "surveillance". But I haven't seen a convincing argument to ban price discrimination. The…

Price discrimination isn't about wealth. A poor person who books a flight the day before because of an emergency pays more than a rich person who books it 3 months out.

Pharmaceuticals lobbying hard to get the UK to stop buying drugs on the national level (where they have enormous pricing power) and make hospitals responsible for buying drugs. This would be terrible for the UK.

Re: San Francisco: Don't Fall for Industry Defense of Surveillance Pricing

#23
post #11

Like most people, surveillance pricing feels gross to me. But I think we need to separate two things: Surveillance pricing is a combination of (a) price discrimination and (b) surveillance. If it were up to me, I'd probably give people much stronger legal rights to control their personal information, which would in turn decrease "surveillance". But I haven't seen a convincing argument to ban price discrimination. The…

Poor countries aren't in danger from this... we can't ban price discrimination in other countries because they have sovereignty, and the pharmaceutical company isn't monolithic. The one operating in another country is another corporation that must follow that countries rules, and will be granted a license from the American parent company to decide for itself what pricing to impose there (which will be controlled by that country's laws on drug pricing).

It's how it works now, and we don't much have the ability to change that. If we tried, the pharmaceutical companies would be in danger... those countries can spin up factories to make the same drugs and just ignore the patents. A behavior/strategy they want to avoid encouraging.

Re: San Francisco: Don't Fall for Industry Defense of Surveillance Pricing

#24
post #11

Like most people, surveillance pricing feels gross to me. But I think we need to separate two things: Surveillance pricing is a combination of (a) price discrimination and (b) surveillance. If it were up to me, I'd probably give people much stronger legal rights to control their personal information, which would in turn decrease "surveillance". But I haven't seen a convincing argument to ban price discrimination. The…

> But I haven't seen a convincing argument to ban price discrimination.

The very definition of "price discrimination" is the convincing argument.

    "How much does this candy bar cost?"
    "Well, you social credit profile says you payed $700 for pair of shoes last week so... twelve grand."
    "But the guy in front of me just paid 35 cents for the same candy bar."
    "Well, I mean, *he* is white."
Meanwhile, dynm:

> But where's the argument?

Looking to big pharma for guidance is depressingly hilarious.

Re: San Francisco: Don't Fall for Industry Defense of Surveillance Pricing

#25
post #14
post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Like a rideshare app offering worse pay to drivers who they know are heavily in debt and near their payment deadline? Offering less pay to people who are desperate and have no other options?

Your example is both bad and irrelevant. Two completely unrelated things can be true simultaneously.

I can’t quite understand your point. My example was a real reported behavior.

Re: San Francisco: Don't Fall for Industry Defense of Surveillance Pricing

#26
post #14
post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Like a rideshare app offering worse pay to drivers who they know are heavily in debt and near their payment deadline? Offering less pay to people who are desperate and have no other options?

Your example is both bad and irrelevant. Two completely unrelated things can be true simultaneously.

I'm not seeing this example as unrelated.

E.g. If a seller knows I've been searching for flu remedies, I've made a social media post related to the illness. Then I go to the pharmacy and everything related to alleviating those symptoms is more expensive for me.

Put simply, if they know you absolutely need something, they will leverage that information.

Re: San Francisco: Don't Fall for Industry Defense of Surveillance Pricing

#27
post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your example is both bad and irrelevant. Two completely unrelated things can be true simultaneously.

I'm not seeing this example as unrelated. E.g. If a seller knows I've been searching for flu remedies, I've made a social media post related to the illness. Then I go to the pharmacy and everything related to alleviating those symptoms is more expensive for me. Put simply, if they know you absolutely need something, they will leverage that information.

A larger more powerful organization has leverage over someone by collecting their data, and uses that to extract value from them.

Re: San Francisco: Don't Fall for Industry Defense of Surveillance Pricing

#28
post #11

Like most people, surveillance pricing feels gross to me. But I think we need to separate two things: Surveillance pricing is a combination of (a) price discrimination and (b) surveillance. If it were up to me, I'd probably give people much stronger legal rights to control their personal information, which would in turn decrease "surveillance". But I haven't seen a convincing argument to ban price discrimination. The…

Simple

There are two ways to legally "earn" money. The first is to provide a product or service that is sufficiently valuable the buyer willingly parts with the money for the price.

The other is extractive — to find a way to exploit the customer with limited choices and extract the maximum value from them. Monopoly pricing is the primary example — people need electricity, housing, food, etc. and if someone corners those markets, or colludes, they can extract a far higher amount of money from people than they would willingly spend in an actually free market of multiple competitors and fully available information (wherein another competitor would offer prices closer to the cost of production and take the business from the overpriced competitor).

Production of value is the essence of the value of capitalism. Extracting value by coercion is fundamentally corrupt, and at the extreme end is nothing more than mob rule ("nice store windows you got there, it'd be a shame if something happened to them; pay us for protection").

Surveillance pricing is simply a fundamentally dishonest form of the latter, exploiting massive amounts of information on customers to extract more money from a person than they would be freely willing to pay for a product, because you found a temporary or permanent vulnerability and 'have them over a barrel'.

A society that permits surveillance pricing will inevitably become more impoverished because the few players doing surveillance pricing will extract more money from the society WITHOUT creating any more value. This impairs everyone else's ability to provide value.

Allowing it is fundamentally stupid and self-destructive.

Re: San Francisco: Don't Fall for Industry Defense of Surveillance Pricing

#29
post #5

This is what I think of when I think of personalized pricing: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rVlT3uHlNAg&t=111s It's pretty much what I've done when selling at flea markets all of my life. I ask what I think the market will bear, per person and situation. I don't feel at all guilty for it. It doesn't surprise me at all that mass customization in the information age has brought us to it at scale, or that the force of…

How do I negotiate with a minimum wage cashier, self-checkout, or a checkout page? Have you ever been in a Kroger property, or Walmart, or any other multi-billion dollar retailer and negotiated on something? Maybe they'll price match and I guess that counts, but it's not as if we have access to data to do that in a meaningful way to compete with the data that they have to act on.

In lieu of suppressing surveillance pricing, I could live with retailers being forced to open source, in real time, all product and sales related data, including historical as far back as they have.

Re: San Francisco: Don't Fall for Industry Defense of Surveillance Pricing

#30
post #11

Like most people, surveillance pricing feels gross to me. But I think we need to separate two things: Surveillance pricing is a combination of (a) price discrimination and (b) surveillance. If it were up to me, I'd probably give people much stronger legal rights to control their personal information, which would in turn decrease "surveillance". But I haven't seen a convincing argument to ban price discrimination. The…

Well for one it undermines the currency by making my dollar worth something different from your dollar, makes it impossible for individuals to make informed choices, and makes it so that there's no reason to try to be more productive/chase some higher paying endeavor since it will be extracted for your basic necessities anyway and you'll end up in the same position. So now labor price signals fail.

We already see the results of this in the US in the medical and educational systems, where planning is nearly impossible because the price is hidden until purchase (or even afterward) and the other side is trying to price it at "whatever you have". Unsurprisingly, both of those have absurd debt loads and are causing society-wide discontent/destabilization.

Now imagine that grocers can individually price to you, and you find out what you owe (and whether you need to put some items back) at the register, and this information about you is available to be purchased by anyone so all available grocers have that same knowledge. What are you going to do?

Post reply on HN