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Hunter-gatherers introduced fish to a mountain lake 7000 years ago

newscientist.com

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Re: Hunter-gatherers introduced fish to a mountain lake 7000 years ago

#41

Post by jmalicki »

m463 wrote: post #2

> That is the only possible explanation for how fish could have populated isolated mountain lakes isn't that a common question? "How do fish appear in landlocked lakes/ponds/etc"? After digging a pond and letting it fill with rainwater/groundwater, fish appear. I don't think its because people carried them there. (don't really know the common answer though)

In California, it's because people (the state department of fish and wildlife) put the fish there.

You can even see their scheduled fish plantings online:

https://nrm.dfg.ca.gov/FishPlants/PublicPlantSearch

Re: Hunter-gatherers introduced fish to a mountain lake 7000 years ago

#42

Post by giancarlostoro »

m463 wrote: post #2

> That is the only possible explanation for how fish could have populated isolated mountain lakes isn't that a common question? "How do fish appear in landlocked lakes/ponds/etc"? After digging a pond and letting it fill with rainwater/groundwater, fish appear. I don't think its because people carried them there. (don't really know the common answer though)

Birds can drop fish after they've captured them. Not longer than a year now, we were visiting my wife's family, and me and my father in law got to Walmart there was a dead fish in the front, but when we mentioned it to my wife who got there before us (separate cars) she said it was struggling for life when they saw it, I don't think there was a lake nearby enough, but I wouldn't be surprised if birds have accidentally introduced life into new bodies of water.

Re: Hunter-gatherers introduced fish to a mountain lake 7000 years ago

#43

Post by giancarlostoro »

iefbr14 wrote: post #5
m463 wrote: post #2

> That is the only possible explanation for how fish could have populated isolated mountain lakes isn't that a common question? "How do fish appear in landlocked lakes/ponds/etc"? After digging a pond and letting it fill with rainwater/groundwater, fish appear. I don't think its because people carried them there. (don't really know the common answer though)

Fish eggs often travel long distances by sticking to the feathers or legs of waterfowl I have been told at school long ago.

Close, I looked it up out of curiosity, it seems Waterfowl eat the eggs, but they travel through their digestive system fully alive. Really interesting even so!

Re: Hunter-gatherers introduced fish to a mountain lake 7000 years ago

#44

Post by giancarlostoro »

sejje wrote: post #11
profsummergig wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe the snakes have been eating the fish eggs / baby fish?

The bullfrogs are the big carnivores, and sure, maybe. Snakes are active but I doubt they eat nearly as much as the bullfrogs.

Apparently if you introduce a large fish species to your pond, the bullfrogs will not eat them, not sure how you would secure the eggs though. Maybe some sort of area that could shelter from them, but once they come out of shelter when they hatch, its kind of the same problem.

Could also introduce fish that will eat the frogs to keep them under control. Or just leave it all as-is.

Re: Hunter-gatherers introduced fish to a mountain lake 7000 years ago

#45

Post by BurningFrog »

giancarlostoro wrote: post #43
iefbr14 wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Fish eggs often travel long distances by sticking to the feathers or legs of waterfowl I have been told at school long ago.

Close, I looked it up out of curiosity, it seems Waterfowl eat the eggs, but they travel through their digestive system fully alive. Really interesting even so!

I can see how the evolutionary advantage of such hardened eggs would be huge!

Re: Hunter-gatherers introduced fish to a mountain lake 7000 years ago

#46

Post by kakacik »

wil421 wrote: post #25
williamdclt wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How did they appear upstream?

There’s a stream in my back yard that doesn’t hold fish over the winter because it’s too shallow/cold. A large property near me has a pond that overflows into my stream. The fish survive in the deeper waters of the pond and spring rain usually washes fish eggs or even fish into my stream. They gather in the rocks in my backyard near the storm drain. Alpine lakes are fed by snow met. There’s not going to be fish eggs…

You yourself wrote in this thread:

> There’s fish eggs being washed everywhere during rain storms. The eggs come from upstream and wash into random places.

Do you realize that in the summer mountains below 4000m are mostly snow-free and thawing point ie in Europe has been pushed above 5000m repeatedly during summers. Its easy to have 25C in 2500m in today's alps (ie today 22C in 2000m in Chamonix, France).

The term 'alpine lake' doesn't mean anything specific, and most are fed from rain during entire summer without any/much of snow or ice contribution.

Re: Hunter-gatherers introduced fish to a mountain lake 7000 years ago

#47

Post by ekjhgkejhgk »

m463 wrote: post #2

> That is the only possible explanation for how fish could have populated isolated mountain lakes isn't that a common question? "How do fish appear in landlocked lakes/ponds/etc"? After digging a pond and letting it fill with rainwater/groundwater, fish appear. I don't think its because people carried them there. (don't really know the common answer though)

It's not the only possible explanation. Fish can get sucked up by tornatos and get dropped later.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rain_of_animals

> Tornadoes and waterspouts may lift up animals into the air and deposit them miles away.

Re: Hunter-gatherers introduced fish to a mountain lake 7000 years ago

#48

Post by barbazoo »

BurningFrog wrote: post #45
giancarlostoro wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Close, I looked it up out of curiosity, it seems Waterfowl eat the eggs, but they travel through their digestive system fully alive. Really interesting even so!

I can see how the evolutionary advantage of such hardened eggs would be huge!

Right, as long as you can still get out.

Re: Hunter-gatherers introduced fish to a mountain lake 7000 years ago

#49

Post by masklinn »

ikidd wrote: post #15
masklinn wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> 7000 years ago is the edge of recorded human civilization (well 8000 years The earliest pre-pottery Neolithic complexes are nearly 4000 years older than that.

Did they have writing and kept records that we've found? That's the "recorded" part.

If writing is your yardstick then 7000 years is way too far back. There was likely proto-writing back then (some of the figures at gobekli tepe are found in a very similar form in later scripts of the area[1], there are clearer forms of proto-writings from CA 6000~7000 BCE in various cultures) however writing proper is only currently known from 3000 BCE onwards.

[1] https://www.researchgate.net/publication/330759548_World's_F...

Re: Hunter-gatherers introduced fish to a mountain lake 7000 years ago

#50

Post by BurningFrog »

graemep wrote: post #19
orsorna wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Great point until the end. None of your descriptions imply a lack of morality for living isolated from a greater civilization. If anything, such small societies inhabit a neutral position, in that they don't care, which is something you already stated. I think the only people arguing that the North Sentinelese are immoral are religious, for instance (hence why most attempts to visit are done by missions). The general…

I do not think anyone is arguing the Sentinelese are immoral?

Do we know anything about their morals, aside from that they kill immigrants at sight?
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