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Teach yourself programming in ten years (1998)

norvig.com

71–80 of 142 posts

Re: Teach yourself programming in ten years (1998)

#71
post #21

It'd be embarrassing if you have to spend $10 in AI tokens for it to fix one line that you could have fixed quicker yourself for free. Not sure if the savings add up enough to offset the investment in learning to program.

On the other hand, sometimes the hardest bugs are only a few lines of code and days of debugging. If an LLM can do it in a day, you've saved time.

Re: Teach yourself programming in ten years (1998)

#72

One of may favorite things to do was to spend some time tinkering around to learn a new programming language. I collected quite a few and it was fun to learn new paradigms and how to organize programs. But now since AI… idk I just can’t do it, it seems just completely useless in the age of AI. Like getting better at the technical aspects of programming just doesn’t feel important anymore. I don’t think I’ll ever be a…

It's not true at all. I recently vibe coded a REST API in Golang even though I never wrote any production Go code. However, I had to make copious use of my previous experience as an engineer to achieve quality. You can see this in the real world. The people who are getting the most out of AI are the ones who already have experience coding without AI. CEOs don't want to admit it but AI can't code anything non-trivial…

I agree with you, but now we have managers pushing code to production, people that never coded but are "IT versed"..so you get PR/MR not just with code, but with PR/MR comment written by Claude, Commit Message written by Claude.. all super verbose, and you know the people operating Claude, have no clue. Super dangerous combination. But part of the reality.

Re: Teach yourself programming in ten years (1998)

#73

One of may favorite things to do was to spend some time tinkering around to learn a new programming language. I collected quite a few and it was fun to learn new paradigms and how to organize programs. But now since AI… idk I just can’t do it, it seems just completely useless in the age of AI. Like getting better at the technical aspects of programming just doesn’t feel important anymore. I don’t think I’ll ever be a…

> learn a new programming language. I collected quite a few and it was fun to learn new paradigms Let's be honest here: how many actually distinct paradigms are we really talking about here? I challenge you to name more than 5 which are not just flavors of the same core approach. Bonus if they are actually all relevant for production software.

Python, Go, Rust, Lua, Racket, and of course Pony.

Python and Lua being probably the most similar of the bunch. The point is not that you would use any of these production (although you could), the point is to get your feet wet in a new setting. You see what's different and what's the same. I think it's a very important part of maturing as a programmer.

Re: Teach yourself programming in ten years (1998)

#74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Another thing is that not many can afford a power loom or similar and I don't think prices will go down, since it is already heavily subsidized?

It's just energy and chips, and both can be made cheaper.

I think GP was referring to the industrial revolution and shares your sentiment.

Re: Teach yourself programming in ten years (1998)

#75
post #56

FWIW, Peter Norvig also gave an updated take on what programming will look like with LLMs around 2 years ago. It did give me some hope back then, but with the development of Fables and Kimis and Sols I think it's truly anyone's guess where the art of programming will go. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ia6aJIplmtc

What most miss today is DX - Developer Experience, many (most?) devs don't want to become Prompt Engineers. Another thing is that not many can afford Fable or similar and I don't think prices will go down, since it is already heavily subsidized?

> Another thing is that not many can afford Fable or similar and I don't think prices will go down, since it is already heavily subsidized?

Not sure if API usage is heavily subsidized, especially for Fable. Chat interface for free users is subsidized for sure. I think we'll see how costly it is to deploy a big model now that Kimi K3 weights have become available.

Re: Teach yourself programming in ten years (1998)

#76
post #21

It'd be embarrassing if you have to spend $10 in AI tokens for it to fix one line that you could have fixed quicker yourself for free. Not sure if the savings add up enough to offset the investment in learning to program.

On the other hand, sometimes the hardest bugs are only a few lines of code and days of debugging. If an LLM can do it in a day, you've saved time.

but not necessarily costs

Re: Teach yourself programming in ten years (1998)

#77
post #21

It'd be embarrassing if you have to spend $10 in AI tokens for it to fix one line that you could have fixed quicker yourself for free. Not sure if the savings add up enough to offset the investment in learning to program.

But it took you probably years of knowledge and learning to be able to fix the line. If you start learning that from 0 today, the AI will be cheaper in the long run - because while it cost 10$ today, we know from history that everything computers & electronics gets faster and more efficient, so it will be 1$ or less in a couple of years.

Re: Teach yourself programming in ten years (1998)

#78
post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

On the other hand, sometimes the hardest bugs are only a few lines of code and days of debugging. If an LLM can do it in a day, you've saved time.

but not necessarily costs

Time's expensive too.

Re: Teach yourself programming in ten years (1998)

#80

One of may favorite things to do was to spend some time tinkering around to learn a new programming language. I collected quite a few and it was fun to learn new paradigms and how to organize programs. But now since AI… idk I just can’t do it, it seems just completely useless in the age of AI. Like getting better at the technical aspects of programming just doesn’t feel important anymore. I don’t think I’ll ever be a…

I used to have this feeling, and I just got over this hurdle. I now continue coding by hand with zero AI usage. It's amazing how much better you feel when you get to use your brain. What really helped me was many perspective shifts perspective shift 1: the people that never cared about programming/engineering finally left the room. the people chasing the trends, trying to grift, or just after money are finally gone.…

A recent thing that caused a perspective shift for me was identifying where my drive was coming from. Triggered by the difference between the etymologies of amateur (one who loves) vs connoisseur (one who knows).

Amateur - learns construction on free time ad hoc/by doing, builds a cabin, enjoys living in it

Connoisseur - reads lots of books on construction, might build a cabin to verify competence, enjoys thinking about it

Professional - went to school and works in construction, enjoys the paycheck, doesn't have a cabin

I haven't read the motorcycle zen book yet, but I imagine that is the loving amateur angle, whereas for me I just thrive in knowledge. Translating that to the current AI hellscape, I kinda like that the code crafting bit is a bit less pronounced where I can instead focus on getting to know the system/model/domain of my work. It helps with the dystopian feelings I sometimes get from being in the mine. But if you are a passionate coder, I would imagine that letting someone else build your cabin would be extremely provoking.

Thank you for this post.

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