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Harmony Explained: Progress Towards a Scientific Theory of Music (2012)

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71–80 of 122 posts

Re: Harmony Explained: Progress Towards a Scientific Theory of Music (2012)

#71
post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

From C the first six stacked fifths give C Lydian, not C major. (You get an F#, the 5th of B as the seventh pitch, not F the 5th of Bb). You don’t get the perfect fourth until you go all the way around the circle of fifths. You cannot stack perfect fifths and get a major scale.

I was being sloppy and should have said diatonic scale.

Sloppiness is why music theory is not scientific.

You can’t get to a scientific rationalization of the primacy of the major scale without it.

Re: Harmony Explained: Progress Towards a Scientific Theory of Music (2012)

#72
post #23

I read through a lot of this article and it does a good job explaining the ratios and math behind harmonics and how that makes chords, but ideas like lower ratios are more pleasant and minor chords feel like something is missing (from the article "I do not hear the Harmonic Series itself -- something is missing") is just wrong - if it was right, then the happiest music would be entirely octaves. Though it's built on…

> if it was right, then the happiest music would be entirely octaves

Not necessarily: if you read the essay, one assumption is that the brain is halving and doubling frequencies to fit them all into one frequency magnitude, an obvious optimization for reducing circuitry. If so, then an octave is too simple to fire the recognizer for a particular harmonic series; instead we need an input that places it relative to the other tones even after the halving/doubling.

Consider the fact that we name both middle C and high C as "C" because, even though they are different notes, they sound so similar that we literally deliberately confuse them notationally as they play the same role in harmony: one can be used to replace the other.

> Music is pleasurable when it mostly meets expectations but surprises you as well, IE it sits just outside of what we expect.

Ok, but where do the expectations come from? Your assertion that it is all culturally relative ("nurture") and none from the structure of the most efficient algorithm for recognizing the harmonic series ("nature") has no basis in fact; you just assert it without proof.

In contrast, there is strong evidence for the absolute nature of auditory processing. In the essay, there is a quotation from Daniel Levitin's book "This is your Brain on Music" where it discusses an experiment he witnessed in graduate school where music was played through wiring directly into the brain of an owl. The music was played into the brain with the root removed; when coming out of the brain of the owl, brain had restored the root (see the essay for details).

That means that virtual pitch (1) is created by the structure of the brain, not by a cultural expectation, and (2) further, that it is created by the brain of, not just a human, but of an owl! This is a very strong argument for the assertion that the processing of sound and the artifacts thereof are quite universal, not just across cultures, but across species.

> ratios and how chords derive from that was absolutely part of my education at Berklee

So at Berklee they teach recognizer algorithms and artifacts thereof? I did not know that Berklee is that strong in computer science. The explanation of the experience of the minor triad in "Harmony Explained" requires the concept of an inconsistency arising from a redundant recognizer algorithm.

In this case, one recognizer fires, that of the conjunction of three pairwise intervals of tones, whereas another recognizer does not fire, that if the triple of tones in order. This combination of firings is inconsistent because it is not possible for it to occur by playing any single normal harmonic series on, say, a flute. To generate it, one must play multiple notes and then use the effect of the recognizer of intervals pairing up tones from across the notes.

That is, this is a new kind of auditory perception that can be created as an artifact of the auditory recognizer algorithms of the brain, but cannot be heard otherwise. This is harmony.

If this this was taught to you at Berklee, please tell me which course that was and what the textbook is so I can look it up in the course syllabus and table of contents.

Re: Harmony Explained: Progress Towards a Scientific Theory of Music (2012)

#73
post #23

I read through a lot of this article and it does a good job explaining the ratios and math behind harmonics and how that makes chords, but ideas like lower ratios are more pleasant and minor chords feel like something is missing (from the article "I do not hear the Harmonic Series itself -- something is missing") is just wrong - if it was right, then the happiest music would be entirely octaves. Though it's built on…

I find the major/minor thing so fascinating. I remember it having the "happy"/"sad" vibes from my earliest memories and have a really hard time with the idea that it could be cultural. But if it's not cultural, then why? Also is the fact that major 9ths have a beach/island vibe cultural due to Brazilian jazz? :-)

I play piano. It's not just cultural, it is partly like that checkerboard lighting illusion. What is objectively one shade, can in a different context, seem like the opposite shade. Major and minor keys in classical music can sometimes exhibit this property.

Re: Harmony Explained: Progress Towards a Scientific Theory of Music (2012)

#74
post #23

I read through a lot of this article and it does a good job explaining the ratios and math behind harmonics and how that makes chords, but ideas like lower ratios are more pleasant and minor chords feel like something is missing (from the article "I do not hear the Harmonic Series itself -- something is missing") is just wrong - if it was right, then the happiest music would be entirely octaves. Though it's built on…

>happiest music would be entirely octaves

While chords certainly do have a perception of emotion, it's resolution and chord progression that seals the deal whether it's perceived as joyful or sad or otherwise.

Re: Harmony Explained: Progress Towards a Scientific Theory of Music (2012)

#75

There are much better overviews of this from Sethares and Tymoczko. Consonance is somewhat frequency-dependent. For more, Google Critical Band and ERB. The happy/sad idea is pretty much a high-school oversimplification. It's true for beginners, not at all true beyond that.\ It's quite rare to find music with straight major and/or minor triads with no other colours.

Are there any readings would you recommend to read if I play classical piano, and especially for Romantic and post-Romantic music ranging from Chopin/Liszt to Debussy/Ravel?

Re: Harmony Explained: Progress Towards a Scientific Theory of Music (2012)

#76
post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While I agree that "good" art "sits just outside of what we expect", I must play devil's advocate here and say that the uncanny valley of CGI/AI/... also "sits just outside of what we expect". So there must be more to it.

Eh, turning that uncanny valley to 11 can be an artform in itself: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TGIvO4eh190

By human? I don't doubt that.

Re: Harmony Explained: Progress Towards a Scientific Theory of Music (2012)

#77
post #23

I read through a lot of this article and it does a good job explaining the ratios and math behind harmonics and how that makes chords, but ideas like lower ratios are more pleasant and minor chords feel like something is missing (from the article "I do not hear the Harmonic Series itself -- something is missing") is just wrong - if it was right, then the happiest music would be entirely octaves. Though it's built on…

I don't buy that minor being "sad" is all nurture and no nature. No matter what tempo or rhythm you put on it or what instruments you use to play it, it may not sound sad, it may sound dramatic and powerful instead, but it never sounds upbeat and happy the way major does (or at least can ).

Listening to "Fiddler on the Roof" and klezmer music unsettled to me the idea that major is happier than minor. I still think minor tends to sound "sad", but those wedding songs and the Russian dance in FotR are clearly upbeat and celebratory. (Literally upbeat; the Russian dance is more upward-beat, as it gets faster and faster!)

Re: Harmony Explained: Progress Towards a Scientific Theory of Music (2012)

#79
You know those HN posts where someone who barely knows how to program decides to tell you why language X is terribly designed? This is that.

Anyone with a decent understanding of music and acoustics can tell it's silly from the title and abstract alone.

Re: Harmony Explained: Progress Towards a Scientific Theory of Music (2012)

#80
I don't think I want a scientific theory of music. That would take the fun out of it. I like music that matches my tastes while still managing to surprise me. What else do I need to know about music?

And what about the discovery that happens when you make your own music? If this was replaced by the perfect scientific theory and a computer program cranking out perfect songs, our incentive for being creative would be greatly reduced.

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