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The iPhone Upgrade Program is being replaced by Apple Upgrade

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Re: The iPhone Upgrade Program is being replaced by Apple Upgrade

#201
post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think "most people" have been shifting towards longer than 24-month replacement cycles. Leasing with a fixed end is probably predicted in their financial models to do a better job of getting more people onto a strict 24 month cycle. Nobody will want to actually buy out their lease on a 2-year-old phone, so they'll turn it in and lease another one, so Apple can throw it into the shredder[1] and show an additional sa…

They won't throw it into the shredder. They'll capture the residual by wholesaling it second-hand, same as with trade-in's.

They already do shred as many as they can (as my link documented) because used iPhones merely existing compete with Apple's offerings.

Think of it from Apple's perspective: You sell a phone for $1,100 and get a 37%[1] margin on it, so that's a $407 profit margin, and a $693 cost to make it.

That phone gets Apple $768 in lease payments according to their site.

Then they take the phone back from the user at 2 years old. EBay shows 2-year-old iPhone 15 Pros going for about $400 so let's assume the wholesale prices is $300.

So Apple has the old phone and can sell it for $300 pure profit before tax or $237 after 21% federal tax, but they know that its existence will displace a new iPhone sale somewhere. Or they can declare it as "too damaged to resell" and shred it, probably take a tax deduction (for the official residual of $332? I'm not sure) for that loss, offsetting $70 of taxes elsewhere, and (very very important point here) because they know they'll sell one incremental new phone, they can expect to have an additional $1100 of topline revenue to show, and another $407 gross profit that they get to book.

Sell it: $237 - $70 opportunity cost of tax deduction they don't get = +$167 to gross profit, Shred it: +$1100 topline, +$407 in gross profit, +$70 in EBITDA.

I'm not a real accountant so I'm sure a few of these figures are off, but I think my main point is valid: Since Apple's main motivation is to increase their stock price, they may benefit more from shrinking the aftermarket than they would from harvesting the value of the old iPhone.

This logic does depend on an additional working semi-late-model iPhone finding its way into the hand of a person, or there being a chain of people, at the end of which having someone who won't buy a brand new iPhone this year, but I think it's hard to argue it doesn't.

[1] https://axis-intelligence.com/apple-statistics/

[2] https://www.apple.com/shop/buy-iphone/iphone-17-pro?purchase...

Re: The iPhone Upgrade Program is being replaced by Apple Upgrade

#202
post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

More tricks to hide rising prices across the board. Looks like a recession indicator to me.

I wish we got some shrinkflation and they brought back the iPhone mini.

Yes please. I can't really believe it but I'm researching android phones because I will not upgrade to something larger than my 3rd gen iPhone SE.

Re: The iPhone Upgrade Program is being replaced by Apple Upgrade

#203
post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> iPhone 17 pro max would be $1199 to buy (~1273 with tax) or $34.99 for 24 months totaling $839.76. So would cost 433.33 at the end of the lease to keep it A lot of people aren’t going to have that $433 at the end of the lease to purchase the device outright, and so will have to roll it into another 2-year monthly payment, and another one after that. So the goal of the program is the same as every other similar one…

> A lot of people aren’t going to have that $433 at the end of the lease to purchase the device outright I think you're looking at this too much from the perspective of someone who wants to own the phone, not as someone who wants to consider a lease. Leases are not a new invention. A lot of people, including very financially savvy and well off people, choose to lease rather than buy depending on the circumstances. It…

People are keeping their phones for longer and longer. This makes it as attractive as possible to pay for a new phone at a more frequent rate.

The bet here is that Apple would much rather you spend ~$35/month perpetually than $1200 every 4 years.

This is a 'good deal' if you're already someone who upgrades their phone frequently, but I would imagine this would end up getting a whole bunch of people to pay more money in the long run to Apple.

Re: The iPhone Upgrade Program is being replaced by Apple Upgrade

#204
post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> iPhone 17 pro max would be $1199 to buy (~1273 with tax) or $34.99 for 24 months totaling $839.76. So would cost 433.33 at the end of the lease to keep it A lot of people aren’t going to have that $433 at the end of the lease to purchase the device outright, and so will have to roll it into another 2-year monthly payment, and another one after that. So the goal of the program is the same as every other similar one…

its not that they wont have $433, it is that people will be unwilling to shell out $433 for two year old device, if they have an option to renew it for a shiny new model and roll forward into another BNPL loan

> roll forward into another BNPL loan

It is not rolled forward. If they don't want to pay the $433, then they don't. They return the device and the new device's lease doesn't include that $433.

It's not like a used car loan that some people have that keeps growing with each transaction (and at insane interest rates).

Re: The iPhone Upgrade Program is being replaced by Apple Upgrade

#205
post #23

The math for the new program is kinda perplexing, my guess is that they are hoping that most people just will send in the device and upgrade. If I am reading the FAQ here properly: https://www.apple.com/shop/apple-upgrade . > If you decide to buy the device, the purchase option fee is the list price minus any lease payments you’ve made minus any remaining discounts or trade-in credit. (excluding tax and any damage fe…

This is crazy, this is just PCP finance… for a phone!

Re: The iPhone Upgrade Program is being replaced by Apple Upgrade

#206

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's a little unclear; they make you select a carrier, but buried in the fine print is: "For iPhone only: In order to lease an iPhone, you must select an eligible carrier (but you cannot use a prepaid carrier plan). A leased iPhone is always unlocked, so you can switch carriers at any time, subject to your carrier’s terms." So it... is unlocked? I am also on US Mobile and don't want to leave it

This is unchanged from the upgrade program terms before. The phone is unlocked, but when you take delivery of the phone you have to activate it on a Big 3 carrier's postpaid plan.

So, the phones arrived locked? You can't use them with any carrier you want?

Re: The iPhone Upgrade Program is being replaced by Apple Upgrade

#207
post #18

Leasing isn’t “I can’t afford to buy it.” It’s about capital allocation. Why would I tie up $1,200 upfront in a device that’s going to be obsolete in a couple of years when I can spread the cost over time, preserve cash flow, and (if it’s a legitimate business expense) deduct the lease payments? Keeping $1,200 in my business earning a return is often worth more than prepaying for a depreciating asset. People happily…

Yeah everyone's naysaying this but it seems like a no brainer? There's no interest, no fees. The total lease price (if you buy out at the end) is the same as the retail price. There's no downside to it at all. If you are someone who upgrades annually, you're now paying ~$599 split over 12 payments vs. ~$1199 up front and either trading in or trying to sell your last gen privately. It works out to about even on a trad…

the other problem is if it’s stolen or damaged.

they literally say you will pay large fees in those cases. it’s basically self insuring.

Re: The iPhone Upgrade Program is being replaced by Apple Upgrade

#208

Earlier quoted context omitted.

apple upgrade forced obsolescence maybe?

if you are willing to run an old OS (and the OS's are getting worse too) then I think you should be OK

It's not a great option. My "old" phone that I use to install junk apps (e.g. I buy some hardware that requires an app to set up) and which mostly sits in a drawer is a 2nd gen iphone SE, and it's getting to the point where I'm going to be forced to replace it, because the OS hasn't been upgraded in a while (it errors) and some apps won't install on it now.

Re: The iPhone Upgrade Program is being replaced by Apple Upgrade

#209
post #18

Leasing isn’t “I can’t afford to buy it.” It’s about capital allocation. Why would I tie up $1,200 upfront in a device that’s going to be obsolete in a couple of years when I can spread the cost over time, preserve cash flow, and (if it’s a legitimate business expense) deduct the lease payments? Keeping $1,200 in my business earning a return is often worth more than prepaying for a depreciating asset. People happily…

For that matter, why would you pay $1200 for a phone?

Re: The iPhone Upgrade Program is being replaced by Apple Upgrade

#210
post #23

The math for the new program is kinda perplexing, my guess is that they are hoping that most people just will send in the device and upgrade. If I am reading the FAQ here properly: https://www.apple.com/shop/apple-upgrade . > If you decide to buy the device, the purchase option fee is the list price minus any lease payments you’ve made minus any remaining discounts or trade-in credit. (excluding tax and any damage fe…

I also wonder whether this leasing thing is also a covert way to get people to be subject to more tracking. If you own a device you have a legal right to do anything to it you want, including jailbreak it or install your own OS that executes things differently. If you lease it you don't necessarily have that right since you are only leasing the rights to use it, not modify it.
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