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Over 150k Flights: Airlines Just Flew the Busiest Day in Recorded History

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Re: Over 150k Flights: Airlines Just Flew the Busiest Day in Recorded History

#61

Post by Tarsul »

K0nserv wrote: post #58
chneu wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are plenty of alternatives. Most importantly: traveling locally. Nobody needs to visit 30 countries by 30 years old or whatever dumb social media excuses they have. Air travel is a very recent modern invention(1960s, at least for everyday folk) and people act like flying around the world is a right. Modern capitalism is an excess machine and it'll feed us constant excuses for why our reasons are valid. Air trav…

Even if you are correct, in practice there's no way to put this particularly genie back in the bottle. It's the same as trying to argue that we should solve our energy problems by asking people to consume less energy. Outside of some climate dictatorship, it's not happening. Also, on travel, I think there's a lot to be said for the value of travel and being exposed to other cultures and societies. "Travel is fatal to…

I believe climate dictatorship will come already this century if our decarbonisation efforts stay as weak as they are. It won't be under that name though. One sufficient policy would be to price everything in money + co2 equivalent currency. Every person in a country gets a certain co2 currency budget per year. Pretty simple actually (yeah yeah, the small print will still be long but the gist is simple).

Re: Over 150k Flights: Airlines Just Flew the Busiest Day in Recorded History

#62

Post by adrianN »

Tarsul wrote: post #61
K0nserv wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Even if you are correct, in practice there's no way to put this particularly genie back in the bottle. It's the same as trying to argue that we should solve our energy problems by asking people to consume less energy. Outside of some climate dictatorship, it's not happening. Also, on travel, I think there's a lot to be said for the value of travel and being exposed to other cultures and societies. "Travel is fatal to…

I believe climate dictatorship will come already this century if our decarbonisation efforts stay as weak as they are. It won't be under that name though. One sufficient policy would be to price everything in money + co2 equivalent currency. Every person in a country gets a certain co2 currency budget per year. Pretty simple actually (yeah yeah, the small print will still be long but the gist is simple).

I could easily be convinced that dictatorships make a big comeback this century, however I find it unlikely that they will have a good carbon policy.

Re: Over 150k Flights: Airlines Just Flew the Busiest Day in Recorded History

#63

Post by jmye »

chneu wrote: post #53
noosphr wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, we need to shut down the power plants. People lived without electricity for millions of years, they can always get back to it. /s

To summarize, this is the equivalent of someone putting their fingers in their ear and going, "lalalalalala I'm not listening" while someone tells them to stop being a consumption monster.

[dead]

Re: Over 150k Flights: Airlines Just Flew the Busiest Day in Recorded History

#64

Post by bergie »

dudefeliciano wrote: post #51
K0nserv wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Flying is a bit unique in that there aren't really viable alternatives. It also accounts for a fairly small portion of emissions. Land transport (cars and trucks), power generation, and heating are where the big wins exist with viable alternatives.

I think if high speed rail was a viable option in the US and Europe those numbers would look a lot different.

In Europe flying is subsidised and ridiculously cheap. That would need to end.

Further than removing subsidies, if flight cost would include its negative externalities, few would fly.

Re: Over 150k Flights: Airlines Just Flew the Busiest Day in Recorded History

#65

Post by constantius »

fusslo wrote: post #33
buellerbueller wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I guess if you are really serious about saving the planet from airplanes, you could start a network of similar-feeling folks and begin randomly bombing enough flights to terrify the world into not flying. Give yourself an edgy name, like the Children of Kali, to make it stick. Honestly, if you think the stakes are that high then you implicate yourself with anything but fully committed action. Anything less, and you j…

I recently read Days of Rage about the various groups committing political violence during the 60s and 70s. Weatherman, Black Panthers, Black Liberation Army, etc. I don't know if there was really a 'message' more than just reporting what 'happened'. But, I have to say I came away with the idea that that kind of political violence is futile. Non-violent political action seemed to have MUCH more beneficial action than…

A famous paper argued that, from 1960 to 2006, nonviolent resistance was twice as likely as violent resistance to achieve its goal: it's a paper that most activists I've ever met had heard of. The reasons are largely the perception of violent resistance by the bystanders, meaning the population.

However, there have been a number of criticisms to the paper about data coding, methodology, and interpretation/motivated reasoning. Recently, the author has also acknowledged that governments have adapted since 2006: her data says nonviolent resistance is still more effective, but that the success rate has cratered.

I tried to find some of the criticisms, but it's recent, so all AI generated, so I won't link before reading, but the criticisms I'm aware of I think are robust. All this to say, the idea that nonviolent resistance is more effective is comfortable and feels better, and there is a paper that says so, but your examples and those of a child comment are not about resistance to armed colonial oppression and it's not enough to form a blanket opinion about violent resistance.

Re: Over 150k Flights: Airlines Just Flew the Busiest Day in Recorded History

#66

Post by bluebarbet »

K0nserv wrote: post #8
bestouff wrote: post #4

Yes let's continue burning fuel. It's fine.

Flying is a bit unique in that there aren't really viable alternatives. It also accounts for a fairly small portion of emissions. Land transport (cars and trucks), power generation, and heating are where the big wins exist with viable alternatives.

Per person, it is reliably the single most polluting thing you will do. The reason it accounts for a "small proportion" of emissions is that most people in the world do not fly at all. Indeed, a tiny (<1% IIRC) elite of the world's population account for most of the world's flight kilometers. Flying is an absolutely unscalable form of transport in a world of 8 billion people.

Re: Over 150k Flights: Airlines Just Flew the Busiest Day in Recorded History

#67

Post by bluebarbet »

elil17 wrote: post #34
ortusdux wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Here is a good list of 'fuel per seat (in mpg)' numbers for various airplane configurations and flight durations: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fuel_economy_in_aircraft#Examp... The total average across the industry in 2018 was between 67 and 81 mpg. Modern planes are in the 100-120mpg range.

The issue is that we are enabling people to travel long distances too cheaply.

And above all too quickly. Per kilometer, flying is roughly as polluting as driving, but nobody would think to drive across a continent to go to the beach.

Re: Over 150k Flights: Airlines Just Flew the Busiest Day in Recorded History

#68

Post by trallnag »

sleepyguy wrote: post #59
bestouff wrote: post #4

Yes let's continue burning fuel. It's fine.

Even hot air balloons burn fuel....How do you propose we cross great distances: horse, sailboat, or walk?

I guess the suggestion is to not travel at all. How much of all air travel is for fun and leisure?

Re: Over 150k Flights: Airlines Just Flew the Busiest Day in Recorded History

#69

Post by tmnvix »

bluebarbet wrote: post #66
K0nserv wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Flying is a bit unique in that there aren't really viable alternatives. It also accounts for a fairly small portion of emissions. Land transport (cars and trucks), power generation, and heating are where the big wins exist with viable alternatives.

Per person, it is reliably the single most polluting thing you will do. The reason it accounts for a "small proportion" of emissions is that most people in the world do not fly at all. Indeed, a tiny (<1% IIRC) elite of the world's population account for most of the world's flight kilometers. Flying is an absolutely unscalable form of transport in a world of 8 billion people.

> Flying is an absolutely unscalable form of transport in a world of 8 billion people.

So is the private (ICE) motorcar. ~4000kg of CO2/y for typical US use.

Re: Over 150k Flights: Airlines Just Flew the Busiest Day in Recorded History

#70

Post by londons_explore »

dudefeliciano wrote: post #47
elil17 wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The issue is that we are enabling people to travel long distances too cheaply.

What about short distances? Why is it cheaper to fly Berlin-Stuttgart than to take a train? it makes absoutely no sense.

Trains are expensive because the track is 99.9% empty.

If you could fill a train track as much as a road is filled, it would be very cheap

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