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Italy Blocks Reproductive Health Websites Women on Web and Women Help Women

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Re: Italy Blocks Reproductive Health Websites Women on Web and Women Help Women

#101

Post by lelanthran »

loup-vaillant wrote: post #93
hbn wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Whether or not a fetus is human life isn't a scientific concept. Pro-choice people "believe" that it isn't. That's not scientific either.

> Pro-choice people "believe" that it isn't. Not all of us I would bet. One can believe the fetus is a human life, and still want to allow the mother ending it. Sure it’s rough, but this is a classic case of conflicting interest. Pretending the fetus isn’t human yet is just one of several ways to side with the mother’s decision. Malformations or danger to the mother’s life are two others. And then there’s the more ra…

> This last one is less a belief, (one week before birth the baby is clearly viable), than it is a value system.

Upthread, a response to me indicated very clearly that, even at 1 day before delivery, it should be the mother's choice.

There's a lot of nuance here, with clearly many people stuck in denial: this is not a binary question. There's a spectrum, all the way from 1 day after conception to 1 day before delivery.

The pro-choicers are pretending that all the pro-lifers want to outlaw the morning after pill. The pro-choicers are also not doing themselves any favours by actually, on this story alone, positioning themselves as supporting 1-day-before-delivery abortions.

Everyone has a line they'll draw. Not everyone's line is in the same place.

Re: Italy Blocks Reproductive Health Websites Women on Web and Women Help Women

#102

Post by toomuchtodo »

kamma4434 wrote: post #85
altern8 wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because I'm from Italy and I have women friends and I know that there are a lot of places where you can get a prescription for abortion pills. We don't need random websites to hand out prescription drugs to kids.

In 2022 there were about 65k abortions in Italy, two thirds of which were with ru486. All of them completely legal and paid for by the national health care. Not sure there is a need for pills over mail.

It's great Italy it has the protections it does, but as long as there are practitioners or institutions that might not respect obtaining this healthcare (out of religion, belief system, whatever, the reason is irrelevant), there should be robust systems to avoid those challenges for those seeking said healthcare. Pills available by mail on demand, automated vending machines, etc.

As mentioned in the 1983 film "WarGames", "We ought to take the men out of the loop".

Re: Italy Blocks Reproductive Health Websites Women on Web and Women Help Women

#103

Post by surgical_fire »

mbmbn wrote: post #65
realo wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes but... you used the word "belief". Nothing scientific there. If the mother was raped and knows for sure she will not bring up her rapist's kid ... or if there is a possibility that letting the baby be born will kill the mother, MY belief is to follow the mother's wishes. It's her body and her life.

And in Italy, she has 90 days to do it legally and for free. And please stop that rape red herring. The overwhelming majority of abortions are carried out as contraceptive methods.

You are being downvoted, and I don't know why. The majority of abortions are a result of people getting pregnant and not wanting a baby. And that's alright, there's nothing wrong with that.

I say this as someone that is 100% pro-abortion. If a woman wants to not have a baby, it's her body, and her right to decide. The discussion ends there.

Life is hard in the best of times. It must suck to be brought into a world where your mother doesn't even fucking want you around.

Moreover, it's probably preferable that people that make poor decisions regarding pregnancy opt themselves out of the gene pool.

Re: Italy Blocks Reproductive Health Websites Women on Web and Women Help Women

#104

Post by lelanthran »

bragr wrote: post #73
eur0pa wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ah that does it. Abortion pills are not candies. There's a reason why they are expected to be used in a hospital setting, with medical personnel nearby. If these websites facilitate the distribution of prescription meds, they're no different from other "online pharmacies" and get the same treatment

>There's a reason why they are expected to be used in a hospital setting, with medical personnel nearby. Not really true. They've been repeatedly shown in studies to be safe for home use. They're evaluating packaging and instructions for possible OTC sale in the the future: https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamainternalmedicine/articl...

> They've been repeatedly shown in studies to be safe for home use.

In that case I fully support the organisations involved to campaign to make abortion pills OTC legal. That does not mean that I support them skirting the law as it is now.

Re: Italy Blocks Reproductive Health Websites Women on Web and Women Help Women

#105

Post by dudefeliciano »

mbmbn wrote: post #65
realo wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes but... you used the word "belief". Nothing scientific there. If the mother was raped and knows for sure she will not bring up her rapist's kid ... or if there is a possibility that letting the baby be born will kill the mother, MY belief is to follow the mother's wishes. It's her body and her life.

And in Italy, she has 90 days to do it legally and for free. And please stop that rape red herring. The overwhelming majority of abortions are carried out as contraceptive methods.

Even so, you are deliberately dismissing rape victims that got pregnant[1], what is their recourse? Or do you just care about the rights of a fetus while it's in utero and then they're on their own as soon as they pop out?

[1]https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamainternalmedicine/fullar...

Re: Italy Blocks Reproductive Health Websites Women on Web and Women Help Women

#106

Post by mullingitover »

lelanthran wrote: post #49
chpatrick wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In Hungary abortion is technically legal but only surgically, and the public health system is mental torture including being forced to listen to the heartbeat of the fetus (thanks to our local fascist party). Women on Web is a million times more humane. It's not like anyone thinks "oh I'm pregnant I'll just pop a pill and it's solved".

[dead]

> Hang on, how is listening to the heartbeat mental torture?

How about if the state decided that it wouldn't force you to donate your organs to some dying person who needed them, but every time there was a person who needed your your organs and you declined you would have to sit and listen to their heartbeat for 20 minutes. Really sit and think about the person you're deciding to kill. After all, if you don't give your body to someone who needs it, you've killed them.

You'd be cool with that, right?

Re: Italy Blocks Reproductive Health Websites Women on Web and Women Help Women

#107

Post by reducesuffering »

chpatrick wrote: post #72
lelanthran wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[dead]

It has absolutely no medical function apart from further traumatizing a woman who's already in a really shitty situation. No one's saying abortion should be possible at 8 months. At 6 weeks when there's a heartbeat it's barely a bag of cells.

> No one's saying abortion should be possible at 8 months.

Yes people do, what? It's legal in like at least 8 US states

Re: Italy Blocks Reproductive Health Websites Women on Web and Women Help Women

#108

Post by lelanthran »

khriss wrote: post #98
lelanthran wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[dead]

> That's clearly already a child and I will object. Clearly you believe in the primacy of preserving life. I am wondering if your belief extends to after the child is born?

> Clearly you believe in the primacy of preserving life. I am wondering if your belief extends to after the child is born?Clearly you believe in the primacy of preserving life. I am wondering if your belief extends to after the child is born?

Are you suggesting that, because I object to abortion a day before delivery, that I must be some kind of misogynistic monster?

Because that's where the line is drawn in this current subthread - 1 day before delivery. If you cannot understand that people consider that a child (i.e. 1 day before delivery) then you have no hope of swaying your audience to your side of the argument at all!

Re: Italy Blocks Reproductive Health Websites Women on Web and Women Help Women

#109

Post by lelanthran »

ordu wrote: post #74
lelanthran wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> So in practice access to it is not always that easy. Understood, but the solution cannot be "allow prescription drugs to be sold online". If access is not easy, there needs to be a different solution.

> If access is not easy, there needs to be a different solution. The only way is to make access easy. If you make it hard, then demand for black market drugs will drive supply. Which in turn would drive a repressive machine. Sites blocked, people convicted and so on. I don't know why anti-abortion activists are unable to understand it. The only working hypothesis they are actively resist any understanding. A dogmatic…

> I don't know why anti-abortion activists are unable to understand it. The only working hypothesis they are actively resist any understanding. A dogmatic worldview can lead to such behavior.

The pro-lifers don't have a monopoly on stupid people - see above where a pro-choicer is arguing that abortion 1 day before delivery should be legal.

Re: Italy Blocks Reproductive Health Websites Women on Web and Women Help Women

#110

Post by lelanthran »

loup-vaillant wrote: post #97
lelanthran wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Indeed, access must be made easy. That is my point. If access is not easy, selling prescription drugs to anonymous buyers is not the solution - access must be made easy. > I’m pretty sure in fact the whole point of allowing stuff like objection of conscience is to make abortion less accessible. I don't think so. No one, whether a doctor or not, should be forced by the state to end the life of any being. That choice…

> No one, whether a doctor or not, should be forced by the state to end the life of any being. I feel you. But that right not to kill, conflicts with the autonomy of women. Which is more important? > I do not trust any state, government or ruler with the power to compel speech or action. France, and many other countries, makes it a crime (misdemeanour I think?) not to help people. If I see someone about to die, and I…

> I feel you. But that right not to kill, conflicts with the autonomy of women. Which is more important?

The right to not kill, obviously. What kind of question is this? You want to judge someone for not being (in their minds) a murderer instead of a controller-of-other-people?

> This is textbook compelled action, and I fully condone it. If you don’t help someone from immediate danger you’re trash, and you should pay the consequences.

Sure, but we aren't talking about immediate danger. All those countries you list don't compel you to help someone who is in no immediate danger.

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