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Kimi Linear: An Expressive, Efficient Attention Architecture (2025)

arxiv.org

71–80 of 141 posts

Re: Kimi Linear: An Expressive, Efficient Attention Architecture (2025)

#71
post #20

Does any expert in the field know whether it is really the case that this intelligence we are seeing with frontier models is an "emerging" phenomena, only coming up when the architecture is scaled? Like isn't it weird that the 1 million parameter model with the same architecture can't solve basic puzzles but suddenly the 1 trillion parameter can conjure up counter-examples for the Jacobian conjecture? It's unintuitiv…

> Like isn't it weird that the 1 million parameter model with the same architecture can't solve basic puzzles but suddenly the 1 trillion parameter can conjure up counter-examples for the Jacobian conjecture?

I'm not sure what you mean? You can see the intelligence of LLMs progress predictably and stably according to scaling laws. LLMs have to encode language in addition to intelligence so there's a minimum bound for them to output sensible text (you can train specialised tiny models to solve basic puzzles without language). Start at around 127M and compare models of increasing parameters and you'll see a clear progression in intelligence.

> It's unintuitive since, to the best of my knowledge, one of the basic tenants of algorithm development was that you can't just brute-force your way towards a solution for some complex problems, e.g. naive sorting algorithms suddenly won't beat quicksort if you put more processing to them

How is that a basic tenet? Simple, easier to parallelise algorithms that have lower memory requirements, or can take better advantage of hardware, or don't hit a plateau the more compute you throw at them, can absolutely beat cleverer algorithms. E.g. brute forcing rendering with Monte Carlo path tracing will give you more physically accurate results than ray tracing or rasterisation algorithms that rely on a bundle of hacks to approximate global illumination, transparency smooth shading, etc.

Re: Kimi Linear: An Expressive, Efficient Attention Architecture (2025)

#72

If you want to believe that the success of Kimi is about distillation attacks, ignore this.

It can easily be both. Also, they didn't use this innovation in K3 - K3 pre-training would have started months ago and the paper only mentions a 48B model. The people working at this level may not even be heavily involved in shipping a new iteration of K3, or at least theory contributions to it were done many months or even a year ago and after that it is all engineering.

Re: Kimi Linear: An Expressive, Efficient Attention Architecture (2025)

#73
post #63
post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Anthropic is claiming that training an LLM to mimic another LLM is materially different and worse than slurping up stuff written by humans (even if that material is stolen). Basically, they want IP protection for Claude. This is a nakedly hypocritical stance, but completely understandable from a company-needs-to-make-money standpoint.

>This is a nakedly hypocritical stance, but completely understandable from a company-needs-to-make-money standpoint. No, it's perfectly reasonable once you get down to reality. China is not going to care about IP. That's just a fact. So either nobody cares about IP (at the very last in this context) and any AI company can just do whatever with data, or Chinese companies have to be held up to scrutiny. We don't have t…

why should western AI companies be held to different standards than Chinese ones? Neither of them are your buddy.

Re: Kimi Linear: An Expressive, Efficient Attention Architecture (2025)

#74

If you want to believe that the success of Kimi is about distillation attacks, ignore this.

It can easily be both. Also, they didn't use this innovation in K3 - K3 pre-training would have started months ago and the paper only mentions a 48B model. The people working at this level may not even be heavily involved in shipping a new iteration of K3, or at least theory contributions to it were done many months or even a year ago and after that it is all engineering.

This paper is from last year

Re: Kimi Linear: An Expressive, Efficient Attention Architecture (2025)

#75
post #20

Does any expert in the field know whether it is really the case that this intelligence we are seeing with frontier models is an "emerging" phenomena, only coming up when the architecture is scaled? Like isn't it weird that the 1 million parameter model with the same architecture can't solve basic puzzles but suddenly the 1 trillion parameter can conjure up counter-examples for the Jacobian conjecture? It's unintuitiv…

[dead]

Re: Kimi Linear: An Expressive, Efficient Attention Architecture (2025)

#76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Agreed. I think when it comes to light that Claude has been known to say “I’m DeepSeek” that everyone has had their hand in that cookie jar. Moreover, paying for API calls hardly seems like an attack; ToS violation to be certain but not in the same category of law as criminal activity like hacking.

wait, is there evidence of this? I've not observed it. It sounds like the kind of thing that I want to be true because it would be hilarious but that makes me suspicious.

LLMs can't reliably answer what they are (w/o getting that info from system prompt/tool call/etc), so yea.

https://xcancel.com/teortaxesTex/status/2026130112685416881

I think I've seen same happening with some European languages as well.

Re: Kimi Linear: An Expressive, Efficient Attention Architecture (2025)

#77

If you want to believe that the success of Kimi is about distillation attacks, ignore this.

False dichotomy right? Are Chinese labs impressively innovating? Clearly. However this doesn’t rule out possible gains due to distillation. I don’t know the degree of the latter but both things could certainly be true.

[deleted]

Re: Kimi Linear: An Expressive, Efficient Attention Architecture (2025)

#78

If you want to believe that the success of Kimi is about distillation attacks, ignore this.

False dichotomy right? Are Chinese labs impressively innovating? Clearly. However this doesn’t rule out possible gains due to distillation. I don’t know the degree of the latter but both things could certainly be true.

Fable was available for a few weeks before Kimi K3 came out. If it was a distillation attack, then that's a truly groundbreaking technological feat to distill a model like Fable in 2 weeks

Re: Kimi Linear: An Expressive, Efficient Attention Architecture (2025)

#79
post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Anthropic is claiming that training an LLM to mimic another LLM is materially different and worse than slurping up stuff written by humans (even if that material is stolen). Basically, they want IP protection for Claude. This is a nakedly hypocritical stance, but completely understandable from a company-needs-to-make-money standpoint.

Google is apparently taking a different stance and offering distillation as a paid product https://docs.cloud.google.com/gemini-enterprise-agent-platfo...

You don't get to take distilled model home, it all stays with Google.

It's "optimize your costs in our garden" product.

Re: Kimi Linear: An Expressive, Efficient Attention Architecture (2025)

#80
post #9
post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not the same KDA as used in Kimi Linear, though.

What's the difference? They are both called Kimi Delta Attention.

The differences are explained in section 2.1.1 of the Kimi K3 technical report: https://arxiv.org/pdf/2607.24653#page=4
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