Live data from Hacker News

Kimi Linear: An Expressive, Efficient Attention Architecture (2025)

arxiv.org

41–50 of 141 posts

Re: Kimi Linear: An Expressive, Efficient Attention Architecture (2025)

#41
post #20

Does any expert in the field know whether it is really the case that this intelligence we are seeing with frontier models is an "emerging" phenomena, only coming up when the architecture is scaled? Like isn't it weird that the 1 million parameter model with the same architecture can't solve basic puzzles but suddenly the 1 trillion parameter can conjure up counter-examples for the Jacobian conjecture? It's unintuitiv…

> one of the basic tenants of algorithm development was that you can't just brute-force your way towards a solution for some complex problems

It's kind of sad that popular CS textbooks often focus on solving precise problems with lowest theoretical complexity bounds while ignoring more practical (but generally applicable) computation techniques.

In machine learning they call it "gradient descent", which in older days had analogies in techniques called "hill climbing", "local search" and "simulated annealing". Basically you have a function you need to optimize for, and you clumsily tweak the parameters so that you get the (locally) max/min value you wanted. These techniques were great at finding approximate, locally maximal solutions without trying all the possibilities at once (which is more akin to the kind of "brute force" in the traditional CS context).

I guess because these techniques were generally applicable yet the outputs were approximate and you couldn't analyze them much (no fancy O(n log n)), the theorists did not find them interesting and thus were not put into the spotlight of student's learning curricula.

In modern machine learning they do this gradient descent thing which is also tweaking the parameters bit by bit to optimize for the loss function, except that the parameters are now in the billions and trillions. The compute required is huge of course, but it's actually quite an "efficient" process, and it's not actually doing much of "brute forcing" at all. During training, the process is essentially, almost equivalent to, compressing the many many trillions of tokens of training data. To me it's quite amazing that they manage to complete such a process within a couple months of training, even if they have hundreds of thousands of GPUs...

Re: Kimi Linear: An Expressive, Efficient Attention Architecture (2025)

#42

If you want to believe that the success of Kimi is about distillation attacks, ignore this.

False dichotomy right? Are Chinese labs impressively innovating? Clearly. However this doesn’t rule out possible gains due to distillation. I don’t know the degree of the latter but both things could certainly be true.

Didn't Anthropic train on our collective data just to sell it back to us for $100/month? On top of that, Apple is suing them over alleged IP and trade secret theft by ex-Apple employees. Hard to feel too sympathetic, and I’m not an Anthropic hater in particular…

Re: Kimi Linear: An Expressive, Efficient Attention Architecture (2025)

#43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

False dichotomy right? Are Chinese labs impressively innovating? Clearly. However this doesn’t rule out possible gains due to distillation. I don’t know the degree of the latter but both things could certainly be true.

Didn't Anthropic train on our collective data just to sell it back to us for $100/month? On top of that, Apple is suing them over alleged IP and trade secret theft by ex-Apple employees. Hard to feel too sympathetic, and I’m not an Anthropic hater in particular…

That Apple lawsuit is against OpenAi, just for clarity

Re: Kimi Linear: An Expressive, Efficient Attention Architecture (2025)

#44
post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

“Distillation” is just indirectly pirating the largely pirated training data used to train the original model. “You stole my warez!”

If we do it, it's training a model. When they do it, it's distillation attack. - Anthropic

"You are distilling what I have rightfully pirated."

Re: Kimi Linear: An Expressive, Efficient Attention Architecture (2025)

#46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is actually a well-known phenomenon in ML, called "The Bitter Lesson". > One thing that should be learned from the bitter lesson is the great power of general purpose methods, of methods that continue to scale with increased computation even as the available computation becomes very great. The two methods that seem to scale arbitrarily in this way are search and learning. The full essay is worth a read, it's pre…

[flagged]

You could read it through internet archive if it's this important.

Re: Kimi Linear: An Expressive, Efficient Attention Architecture (2025)

#47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is actually a well-known phenomenon in ML, called "The Bitter Lesson". > One thing that should be learned from the bitter lesson is the great power of general purpose methods, of methods that continue to scale with increased computation even as the available computation becomes very great. The two methods that seem to scale arbitrarily in this way are search and learning. The full essay is worth a read, it's pre…

[flagged]

Not quite. The Wikipedia page is worth a look through if you don’t want to click on an http page. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bitter_lesson

Re: Kimi Linear: An Expressive, Efficient Attention Architecture (2025)

#48

If you want to believe that the success of Kimi is about distillation attacks, ignore this.

I'd kindly suggest that we could also stop calling them "distillation attacks ".

Agreed. I think when it comes to light that Claude has been known to say “I’m DeepSeek” that everyone has had their hand in that cookie jar. Moreover, paying for API calls hardly seems like an attack; ToS violation to be certain but not in the same category of law as criminal activity like hacking.

Re: Kimi Linear: An Expressive, Efficient Attention Architecture (2025)

#49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Here's one way it could happen: Let's say there's some circuit that does problem solving of the kind we call intelligence. We dont know what this circuit looks like, but it exists in our brain. Doing regression on outputs from the brain (e.g. internet text) with enough parameters, we can "fit" our model to this circuit. But if you try to fit it with fewer parameters than it needs, you're just going to get some linear…

So basically a Nyquist rate type of concept.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Information_bottleneck_method

Re: Kimi Linear: An Expressive, Efficient Attention Architecture (2025)

#50
post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Anthropic is claiming that training an LLM to mimic another LLM is materially different and worse than slurping up stuff written by humans (even if that material is stolen). Basically, they want IP protection for Claude. This is a nakedly hypocritical stance, but completely understandable from a company-needs-to-make-money standpoint.

Google is apparently taking a different stance and offering distillation as a paid product https://docs.cloud.google.com/gemini-enterprise-agent-platfo...

But nobody wants to distill Google's models, Gemini is really bad.
Post reply on HN