Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Mondragon Corporation – a federation of co-operatives

en.wikipedia.org

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

11–20 of 43 posts

Re: Mondragon Corporation – a federation of co-operatives

#11

Post by kdfjgbdfkjgb »

roenxi wrote: post #4
petrocrat wrote: post #2

Worker cooperatives are fully compatible with capitalism. Only mentioning it because sometimes this idea gets unfairly maligned due to some mistaken association with socialism or even communism. There should be more of these sorts of entities in the USA and Europe, and frankly everywhere. It's an assured route towards better conditions for the working class, by making them owners and stakeholders in a more substantia…

It remains confusing that, after centuries of profiting off capital generally being a much better strategic choice than profiting off labour, workers insist and persist in trying to make labour work. If the unions had dumped their efforts into co-ops instead of trying to fight their own companies then they might have managed to have a positive impact. They've been at it for long enough for capital accumulation to hav…

capitalists profit of labour, it's just other people's labour.

Re: Mondragon Corporation – a federation of co-operatives

#12

Post by js8 »

inigyou wrote: post #5
petrocrat wrote: post #2

Worker cooperatives are fully compatible with capitalism. Only mentioning it because sometimes this idea gets unfairly maligned due to some mistaken association with socialism or even communism. There should be more of these sorts of entities in the USA and Europe, and frankly everywhere. It's an assured route towards better conditions for the working class, by making them owners and stakeholders in a more substantia…

Capitalism is not simply free markers - it means "control by people with capital." People control society proportionally to how much capital they have, and those who control vast boards of capital are very uninterested in allowing capital to be spread around more equitably.

The parent post is not even the worst offender. In his (otherwise good) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/23_Things_They_Don%27t_Tell_Yo..., Ha-Joon Chang completely flips the meaning between free markets and capitalism.

I would say that capitalism is not only characterized by private ownership of capital, but also by free market for labor, which could be almost considered a complementary feature (other side of the same coin).

On the other hand, socialism primarily rejects free market for labour in favor of worker emancipation and participation in decision-making. So both socialism and capitalism are compatible with free markets; it's the labor market where the opinion differs.

(As a socialist, I would add, salaries cannot be treated in economics the same way as e.g. price of apples, because apple doesn't care what its price is.)

Re: Mondragon Corporation – a federation of co-operatives

#14

Post by EGreg »

petrocrat wrote: post #2

Worker cooperatives are fully compatible with capitalism. Only mentioning it because sometimes this idea gets unfairly maligned due to some mistaken association with socialism or even communism. There should be more of these sorts of entities in the USA and Europe, and frankly everywhere. It's an assured route towards better conditions for the working class, by making them owners and stakeholders in a more substantia…

It is quintessential socialism: collective ownership (of the “means of production”).

It is just embedded in a market system, just as, say, USSR or Cuba was embedded in the global economy.

That doesn’t make it not socialist.

And not all socialism is “bad”. It has to do with whether it is voluntary or not. I am a libertarian, and I fully support communes, housing cooperatives, credit unions and the like. I consider the lack of a superfluous extractive landlord or shareholder class a feature.

Re: Mondragon Corporation – a federation of co-operatives

#15

Post by soco »

roenxi wrote: post #4
petrocrat wrote: post #2

Worker cooperatives are fully compatible with capitalism. Only mentioning it because sometimes this idea gets unfairly maligned due to some mistaken association with socialism or even communism. There should be more of these sorts of entities in the USA and Europe, and frankly everywhere. It's an assured route towards better conditions for the working class, by making them owners and stakeholders in a more substantia…

It remains confusing that, after centuries of profiting off capital generally being a much better strategic choice than profiting off labour, workers insist and persist in trying to make labour work. If the unions had dumped their efforts into co-ops instead of trying to fight their own companies then they might have managed to have a positive impact. They've been at it for long enough for capital accumulation to hav…

I call free weekends, 40 hours work week, no children work all positive impacts of the unions. And there are for sure more of these.

Re: Mondragon Corporation – a federation of co-operatives

#17

Post by kingsfoil »

"Mutualism" by Sara Horowitz was an interesting book that discussed some of the history of this style of worker owned businesses. She traces some of it's history, and points out other examples of this style of worker or member governance showing up in other organizations: https://www.porchlightbooks.com/products/mutualism-sara-horo...

Great read, highly recommend.

Re: Mondragon Corporation – a federation of co-operatives

#18

Post by oldandboring »

johnnyainsworth wrote: post #6

Worth noting that is completely legal in the USA and even encouraged by the tax code. They are called ESOPs (Employee Stock Ownership Program). An ESOP configured as an S-Corp that is 100% employee owned pays no federal business tax. Some examples of well known ESOPs in the US are Wawa, Bob's Red Mill, and W. L. Gore & Associates (makers of Gore-Tex).

Well, sort of. Technically speaking, S-Corps by definition pay no federal income tax since they're pass-through entities. If the sole shareholder of an S-Corp was an ESOP, the income is passing through to it. The ESOP has beneficiaries (the employees) whose shares sit in a trust. Income to the ESOP isn't taxed at the moment of filing, it's deferred: when the beneficiaries take distributions according to their shares, they pay ordinary income tax in that year.

Re: Mondragon Corporation – a federation of co-operatives

#19

Post by vjvjvjvjghv »

roenxi wrote: post #4
petrocrat wrote: post #2

Worker cooperatives are fully compatible with capitalism. Only mentioning it because sometimes this idea gets unfairly maligned due to some mistaken association with socialism or even communism. There should be more of these sorts of entities in the USA and Europe, and frankly everywhere. It's an assured route towards better conditions for the working class, by making them owners and stakeholders in a more substantia…

It remains confusing that, after centuries of profiting off capital generally being a much better strategic choice than profiting off labour, workers insist and persist in trying to make labour work. If the unions had dumped their efforts into co-ops instead of trying to fight their own companies then they might have managed to have a positive impact. They've been at it for long enough for capital accumulation to hav…

You can’t profit off capital if nobody does the labor. We need both roles and both deserve respect.

What would Musk do if nobody worked for him? He is probably not going to be able to develop rockets alone in his basement.

Re: Mondragon Corporation – a federation of co-operatives

#20

Post by mikojan »

johnnyainsworth wrote: post #6

Worth noting that is completely legal in the USA and even encouraged by the tax code. They are called ESOPs (Employee Stock Ownership Program). An ESOP configured as an S-Corp that is 100% employee owned pays no federal business tax. Some examples of well known ESOPs in the US are Wawa, Bob's Red Mill, and W. L. Gore & Associates (makers of Gore-Tex).

Employee stock ownership is a leap forward and studies consistently highlight its economic benefits.

However, Mondragon, and co-ops like it, go further. They are industrial democracies: one worker, one vote.

Post reply on HN